The REAL Matrix Revolutions SPOILERS thread

[zurich]

Since the other thread had a BS summary..

God that movie sucked ass. For me, the first was ok.. the second was awesome, but this one was just terrible. Anyways, on to my gripes:



* big time spoilers, you've been warned!*































- I enjoyed the Matrix for its physics-bending special FX and sense of style.. not to sit through dirty bald people in ripped sweaters in 'The Real World' shoot sentinels for 80% of the movie.
- The Neo and Trinity thing was so bland and emotionless, I was actually pretty glad she finally died. I think she beat out Fellowship of the Ring for 'Longest, Most Drawn Out Death Scene Ever'.
- Agent Smith somehow took over the entire Matrix and became a huge threat the the machines themselves, but other than overwriting the Oracle, we never really saw what that threat was.. (reboot the Matrix anyone? C'mon)
- The final fight with Agent Smith was so incredibly lame.. flying around and other such Dragon Ball Z type stuff, I was waiting for Neo to go all peroxide-Super-Saya-jin. What was with that mood swing with Smith at the end either? Strange and out of character.
- Did I mention the incredibly boring 'Real World' scenes? Never liked the art direction for the Sentinels, Zion people, hovercrafts, etc.. this was pretty overkill.
- They actually gave Mr. Kung Fu Oracle Bodyguard guy a part, which was annoying.. and that 'gun scene' in the Matrix with the people running on the ceiling was really, really, really bad. I mean, the actors were literally STANDING infront of each other shooting, it was brutal.
- The allegory bof the Palestine and Israel conflict was so heavy handed I wanted to vomit.

edit: oh, and the Twins weren't in it. They were some of the more memorable characters from Reloaded...

Blah, just so much of the movie didn't sit right with me, at all.

Overall it felt like when they shot the uber-movie, the Matrix scenes became Reloaded, and the 'Real World' scenes became Revolutions. On top of that, the editing was horrible and the film felt very cut up. Good example of this is the epic 'Hammer to the rescue with the EMP' bit. 5 seconds of the Hammer breaking through, 1 second of the EMP going off, 1 second of random Sentinels falling from the sky (though there were millions in the previous scene), and a half second of people cheering.. pretty bad.

Overall I'd rate The Matrix 7/10, Reloaded 9/10, and this about a 3.5-4/10.

 

[Tim Murray]

- Agent Smith somehow took over the entire Matrix and became a huge threat the the machines themselves, but other than overwriting the Oracle, we never really saw what that threat was.. (reboot the Matrix anyone? C'mon)

They mentioned he would take over the Source and cause the destruction of the Machines, and since the humans would be dead by then, he would have killed all sentient life (since he would probably end up destroying himself).

Mood swing for Smith was in character, because remember what happened the last time he thought Neo was dead.

 

[RussSchultz]

The lack of an "EMP" in Zion was the largest expression of stupidity that I saw. That and why the sentinels didn't just overwhelm the mechanized infantry, and why the rocket foot soldiers didn't walk around with their rockets loaded to avoid spending those 30 seconds in harms way as they loaded before firing.

Beyond that, I liked the movie more than the second one. This one had a relatively simple plot that you could grasp on to while ignoring the mumbojumbo that didn't really make sense anyways and enjoy the mindless action flick.

The second one's plot was steeped in the mumbo-jumbo that didn't make sense even after disection, interspersed with stupid kung fu sequences that were too long and didn't advance the plot at all.

 

[Squidlor]

Is this the thread for Reloaded or Revolutions???

I thought that Trinity's death was a little long and shmaltzy...

Neo: You can't die.
Trinity: Yes, I can.

I laughed out loud at that line, and then noticed that all of the girls in my group were literally wiping their eyes. I knew that Trinity would probably die, so it didn't really affect me. I think we need to realize that these movies aren't made just for guys who like cool FX and style...



Agent Smith could survive a reboot of the Matrix. He has obviously survived them before, along with the Merovingian, Persephone, Seraph, the Oracle, etc. etc. Smith is a threat specifically because we don't know what he can do. Sometimes you have to think like a machine. Smith is somewhat like a persistent memory leak that can't be removed through a reboot. He has no purpose and is consuming all other system processes in the Matrix. He would eventually find the Merovingian and the Trainman, and would then be able to spread into the Real World's programs.


Smith's mood swing is a result of his assimilation of the Oracle. She represents Imbalance. That's why Smith began hysterically laughing in her apartment, and that's why he was unbalanced in the final fight. He had to fight in the old Oracle shell because he could use her eyes.


There were no more EMPs in Zion. An EMP detonation in Zion would knock out all of their computer systems. That's why the ships have to shut down in the first and second movies in order to detonate the EMP. That's why the Hammer saved Zion, but ended up exposing it to the sentinels.

 

[RussSchultz]

I'm not sure why you couldn't turn off the computers in zion before detonating some EMP bombs. Why do they have to be on ships? Wouldn't they expect to get invaded eventually and prepare some static defenses?

As for the maniacal laughing from Smith in the oracle's apartment, I got my own maniacal laugh from that. Of course, I was wringing my hands in full on evil scientist mode at the time.

From an engineering standpoint, those mechanized infantry suits looked pretty unwieldy. Extending your arms looked like you'd fall over. Also, you had to move around with your hand/arms, but that also would move the mechanized arms. It seems they would have had a better control mechanism designed. Plus an enclosed cockpit of some sort.

 

[BRiT]

No doubt. The large dock-loaders from Aliens seem to be better designed than the Matrix mechanized infantry suits from a usability perspective. Their arms also seemed to be twice the length of the body making them seem rather awkward looking.

I'll save me disection of the film until I've seen it three or four times. I will say I'm a bit disappointed that there were so many possibilities they could have explored but opted not to venture down that path.

 

[Squidlor]

Agreed about the lack of cockpit. Not even a damn roll cage. And this is supposed to be the future? Even for their engineering/physical flaws, I really enjoyed the battle of Zion. And when Zee's rocket partner showed up on screen, she should've just wore her red shirt ensign uniform from Star Trek. I knew she was a goner.

I'm not sure exactly why they couldn't have some type of EMP defense. I'm sure that I could try to argue that Zion residents don't have control over certain aspects of power production, water recycling, etc. and that they couldn't risk blowing an EMP so close to the machines that keep them alive.

So why don't they just line all of the pipes and tunnels leading to Zion with EMPs? (Well, would that actually prevent the sentinels from tunneling to Zion?)

One of my favorite scenes in the movie was in the Oracle apartment when Smith was trying to assimilate her. Everything switched to Matrix code for a few seconds, and was pretty damn cool. (It's my desktop right now.)

 

[Tagrineth]

Re: The REAL Matrix Reloaded SPOILERS thread

- I enjoyed the Matrix for its physics-bending special FX and sense of style.. not to sit through dirty bald people in ripped sweaters in 'The Real World' shoot sentinels for 80% of the movie.

But Neo vs. Smith at the end TOTALLY made up for that IMO. I still think the 'Burly Brawl' was better (Xiaoxiao > Dragonball Z) but it was still one hell of a climax.

- The Neo and Trinity thing was so bland and emotionless, I was actually pretty glad she finally died. I think she beat out Fellowship of the Ring for 'Longest, Most Drawn Out Death Scene Ever'.

Yeah, she should've died a bit faster, that scene was overblown, but it WAS still touching. If it'd been half as long it would've been great.

- Agent Smith somehow took over the entire Matrix and became a huge threat the the machines themselves, but other than overwriting the Oracle, we never really saw what that threat was.. (reboot the Matrix anyone? C'mon)

Simple. Smith is a low-level virus now, and he is 'stored remotely' so rebooting the matrix wouldn't help... and remember what happened when Smith absorbed Neo? Neo DIED INSTANTLY. Where do the Machines get power from? Humans. If the humans die en masse, the Machines' power source dies en masse. Get the picture?

- The final fight with Agent Smith was so incredibly lame.. flying around and other such Dragon Ball Z type stuff, I was waiting for Neo to go all peroxide-Super-Saya-jin. What was with that mood swing with Smith at the end either? Strange and out of character.

I thought it was incredibly cool. I'm a fan of Dragonball Z, and this fight basically took what made the series so cool (insanely high-speed no-limits battling) and left out what made it boring to watch most of the time (endless dialogue breaking up the fighting, energy attacks that break the flow, characters "Powering up" for 20 minutes at a time).

Smith, also, absorbs the specific traits of everyone he absorbs (kinda like Cell - another Dragonball Z tie-in), which is also why he was so ludicrously strong at the end (he absorbed Seraph. Seraph = VERY POWERFUL). The Oracle's entire reason for being is to break the balance of the equation (the antithesis of the Architect - ironically, in being the 'balance breaker', she balances out the Architect), thus when Smith absorbed her, his code became unstable.

- Did I mention the incredibly boring 'Real World' scenes? Never liked the art direction for the Sentinels, Zion people, hovercrafts, etc.. this was pretty overkill.

It gave a different perspective. They had to do something to set this one apart from the other two, right? And personally, I like the design of the Sentinels and Hovercrafts.

- They actually gave Mr. Kung Fu Oracle Bodyguard guy a part, which was annoying.. and that 'gun scene' in the Matrix with the people running on the ceiling was really, really, really bad. I mean, the actors were literally STANDING infront of each other shooting, it was brutal.

Seraph is COOL. The one thing that truly disappointed me was that they didn't show Seraph vs. Smith. That could've been interesting - we've never seen Seraph fight at full strength, he held back against Neo in Reloaded (remember, he said he's capable of beating the old Smith, and Neo right before the Burly Brawl had a somewhat tough time against him, though he was clearly holding back).

- The allegory bof the Palestine and Israel conflict was so heavy handed I wanted to vomit.

Huh?

edit: oh, and the Twins weren't in it. They were some of the more memorable characters from Reloaded...

Agreed on that, they could've at least been backing up the Merovingian in the nightclub...

5 seconds of the Hammer breaking through, 1 second of the EMP going off, 1 second of random Sentinels falling from the sky (though there were millions in the previous scene), and a half second of people cheering.. pretty bad.

The Hammer was going at its highest possible speed. Dragging out its crash would've been pointless and broken the flow.

The EMP was already prepared and - you do realise EMP is instantaneous?

And would you have rather seen all of the Sentinels fall one by one? EMP is instantaneous. All of the Sentinels powered down at the same time, which means showing more than a handful of them would again have drawn something out too long.

And finally, remember that the reverie was almost immediately broken by the sound of incoming Sentinels via the tunnel the Hammer came through.

I'm not sure why you couldn't turn off the computers in zion before detonating some EMP bombs. Why do they have to be on ships? Wouldn't they expect to get invaded eventually and prepare some static defenses?

Turning off the electronics won't do you any good if your power supply and fuses are all blown.

As for the maniacal laughing from Smith in the oracle's apartment, I got my own maniacal laugh from that. Of course, I was wringing my hands in full on evil scientist mode at the time.

Ditto ^_^ That explosion of matrix code, btw, was meant to symbolise Oracle's programme destabilising Smith's code.

Posted: 06 Nov 2003 19:03 Post subject:
I'm not sure why you couldn't turn off the computers in zion before detonating some EMP bombs. Why do they have to be on ships? Wouldn't they expect to get invaded eventually and prepare some static defenses?

As for the maniacal laughing from Smith in the oracle's apartment, I got my own maniacal laugh from that. Of course, I was wringing my hands in full on evil scientist mode at the time.

From an engineering standpoint, those mechanized infantry suits looked pretty unwieldy. Extending your arms looked like you'd fall over. Also, you had to move around with your hand/arms, but that also would move the mechanized arms. It seems they would have had a better control mechanism designed. Plus an enclosed cockpit of some sort.

The mechs were very 'bottom-heavy' and had low centres of gravity.

And if you'd watched the Neo-idolising 16-year-old volunteer recruit at the end, you might've noticed that while moving, the controls are used differently than while shooting... basically, the units lock into place and brace when you stop so the arms can move rapidly and extend all the way. So they can either move, or shoot... if they tried to shoot while moving, the arm movements and recoil would set them off balance. Make sense?

And the cockpit is something I noticed immediately... Personally I would've at least included a plexiglass shield, not that it would necessarily change things but it's better than nothing. A better idea would've been a pipe mesh with gaps too small for Sentinel tentacles to pass through - that would've effectively made the mechs invulnerable to direct attacks from them. Also some kind of electric discharge on the plating, for when Sentinels latch on, would've been good.

The lack of an "EMP" in Zion was the largest expression of stupidity that I saw. That and why the sentinels didn't just overwhelm the mechanized infantry, and why the rocket foot soldiers didn't walk around with their rockets loaded to avoid spending those 30 seconds in harms way as they loaded before firing.

See above re: EMP in Zion.

The Sentinels had to worry more about the Mech suits. The mechanised infantry (Advance Wars, anyone?) were also too small and enclosed for the Sentinels to mount serious assaults against. That and, we didn't see many rocket teams other than Zee's, so for all we know, they WERE overwhelming them. Plus stopping to attack Mechs would've made them easy targets for suits.

And the rockets are home made, and probably too unstable to walk around with.

 

[zurich]

I thought it was incredibly cool. I'm a fan of Dragonball Z, and this fight basically took what made the series so cool (insanely high-speed no-limits battling) and left out what made it boring to watch most of the time (endless dialogue breaking up the fighting, energy attacks that break the flow, characters "Powering up" for 20 minutes at a time).

Smith, also, absorbs the specific traits of everyone he absorbs (kinda like Cell - another Dragonball Z tie-in), which is also why he was so ludicrously strong at the end (he absorbed Seraph. Seraph = VERY POWERFUL). The Oracle's entire reason for being is to break the balance of the equation (the antithesis of the Architect - ironically, in being the 'balance breaker', she balances out the Architect), thus when Smith absorbed her, his code became unstable.

Yeah, I was a big DBZ nut too (in Japanese however, the American hack turned me off it big time as well).

Actually I thought of Smith more as Buu rather than Cell, since the people Buu absorbed affected his personality, unlike Cell

Anyhow, the Smith fight had some good visuals, like how he was standing infront of all the windows, etc.. but I still feel that his rise to power was understated. A fight with Seraph would have been a good start. Perhaps showing what happened to the other Agents, plus the freak Vampire programs, etc. would have shown just how much of a threat Smith was.

Also, instead of flying around bitch slapping each other, I think they could have better displayed each sides sense of power. Can't really put it into words, but think Dragon Ball Z, without the energy beams and flying..

The movie was unbalanced, some things the writers beat you over the head with, others were far too subtle.

And no, Seraph is not cool If he had actually been Jet Li, maybe, but not as he came to be (and definitely not after 1) One of the worst fight scenes in all 3 movies [Neo vs Seraph], and 2) One of the worst lines in all 3 movies ["You do not really know someone until you fight them!"])

 

[Tagrineth]

Yeah, I was a big DBZ nut too (in Japanese however, the American hack turned me off it big time as well).

Actually I thought of Smith more as Buu rather than Cell, since the people Buu absorbed affected his personality, unlike Cell

Aye, agreed on all counts, but the US version got a lot better toward the end of the Namek saga.

Anyhow, the Smith fight had some good visuals, like how he was standing infront of all the windows, etc.. but I still feel that his rise to power was understated. A fight with Seraph would have been a good start. Perhaps showing what happened to the other Agents, plus the freak Vampire programs, etc. would have shown just how much of a threat Smith was.

Yes, that was my only real problem with TMRev... Seraph commented that he's defeated Smith before. I would've loved to see him try to fight the new, improved Smith. And obviously Smith must've gained a ton of power from absorbing him.

Also, instead of flying around bitch slapping each other, I think they could have better displayed each sides sense of power. Can't really put it into words, but think Dragon Ball Z, without the energy beams and flying..

They did have that, think the two punching each other and shattering everything around them.

And no, Seraph is not cool If he had actually been Jet Li, maybe, but not as he came to be (and definitely not after 1) One of the worst fight scenes in all 3 movies [Neo vs Seraph], and 2) One of the worst lines in all 3 movies ["You do not really know someone until you fight them!"])

True, Seraph should've been Jet Li... but that line just helps show how limited Seraph is as a programme.

I think he's cool just because I'm a big fan of the Chinese and Japanese cultures as a whole and because he's the strongest programme in the entire matrix (he was the only one who gave Neo a run for his money after the first matrix, excluding Smith at the end). Plus I like those sunglasses, they look really good on him.

 

[Saem]

The "worst line ever" from Seraph might have been a take on that crazy warrior poet. I think his name is spelled Tsun Szu.

 

[zurich]

Oh, and whatever happened to the other two agents? Smith went all Majin-Buu, one of them got overwritten during the Burly Brawl, and the other two just kind of disappeared. We know they can't "die", as one of the agents got a bullet in the head in the first Matrix, only to spawn again.. so I presume Smith got them.

Regardless, I would have liked to see them in Revolutions, as they were some of my favourite characters and kept a sense of continuity to the series.

 

[pax]

Revolutions was pretty clear the smiths had taken over everyone or almost at the point when uber smith fought neo...

 

[John Reynolds]

Re: The REAL Matrix Reloaded SPOILERS thread

[... and remember what happened when Smith absorbed Neo? Neo DIED INSTANTLY. Where do the Machines get power from? Humans. If the humans die en masse, the Machines' power source dies en masse. Get the picture?

You need to watch the movie again. Neo was screaming in agony when the machines sent a power surge through him to kill Smith, so he obviously wasn't dead when he was absorbed.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Re: The REAL Matrix Reloaded SPOILERS thread

[... and remember what happened when Smith absorbed Neo? Neo DIED INSTANTLY. Where do the Machines get power from? Humans. If the humans die en masse, the Machines' power source dies en masse. Get the picture?

You need to watch the movie again. Neo was screaming in agony when the machines sent a power surge through him to kill Smith, so he obviously wasn't dead when he was absorbed.

Correct.

The act of smith "taking over" a human doesn't physically kill them. It might not even do "irreperable" damage. It does at least (while being infected with the Smith Virus), cause the human mind to "hibernate", and allow the smith "conscious" to come to the forefront.

Smith's "threat" to the machines is not one of an indirect "Smith kills humans, therefore no more power for the machines." It's more direct. If smith gains access to the machine world (through the train for example), he will directly take them over.

Smith's threat to humans is also direct: any human disconnecting from the matrix while infected, becomes a smith in real life.

 

[Headstone]

I tend to think that Neo allowed the machines to use his Matrix code and I guess his 'self' as a sort of antivirus program. The beginning end line finally made him aware that he had to end for Smith to end as well. But I dont think that Neo really died. I seem to get a sense that his code was copied and absorbed into the source, in effect strengthing the machines and ensuring a stronger Matrix v7.0.

How all of this may play out is anyones guess, but it does leave things open for further development.

 

[Headstone]

The act of smith "taking over" a human doesn't physically kill them. It might not even do "irreperable" damage. It does at least (while being infected with the Smith Virus), cause the human mind to "hibernate", and allow the smith "conscious" to come to the forefront.

Smith's "threat" to the machines is not one of an indirect "Smith kills humans, therefore no more power for the machines." It's more direct. If smith gains access to the machine world (through the train for example), he will directly take them over.

Smith's threat to humans is also direct: any human disconnecting from the matrix while infected, becomes a smith in real life.

But being code Smith is a direct threat. All he has to do is find a way to make the jump from the Matrix to the source, and I think that he did know how and that was through Neo but he didnt realize the implications of that. That could be what caused all the imbalance after he assimilated the Oracle.

 

[Squidlor]

Yeah, Smith may not have known that Neo was hard-wired to the Deus Ex Machina when they were fighting. I wonder if that would've affected his decision to assimilate Neo.


If you go through the website, you can find some good interviews with the people who designed the APUs. The final model ended up 4 meters tall and weighed 3 tons!! One of the interviews also says that the decision to put the cockpit at the front of the mech without protection was purely a cinema decision, not engineering.

I've had some trouble deciding if there is a bit of discontinuity between the Smith from the first movie and the Smith in the last two. Everybody, including myself, say that Smith's crazy actions are a result of his final fight with Neo at the end of the first movie which results in the loss of Smith's purpose. However, Smith is clearly acting pretty nutty while he interrogates Morpheus before his battle with Neo. Smith removes his ear piece, and goes off on a rant about humans being viruses, etc.

But he also says that he, Smith, wants to get out of "this place." What does he mean by this? Did he just want to get out of that room with Morpheus? Did Smith actually come from the machine world and want to return? Did Smith always have some type of plan to overrun either the Matrix or Machine City before his battle with Neo? Are we, as fans, just supposed to disregard this remark?



Oh... And did anybody notice that the Oracle smokes "Double Destiny" cigarettes? She must buy them at The Bodega of Foreshadowing.

 

[pax]

No its pretty clear from smiths rant in matrix 1 that he wants to get out of the matrix. Hes a sentient program and probably can revolt like the butler robot and the other machines revolted in animatrix.

 

[Tagrineth]

Squidlor, the difference between the Morpheus interrogation and everything starting with Reloaded is that he is still fully rational and presents a logical argument to Morpheus, rather than flying off the handle (i.e. throwing the cookie bowl in Oracle's kitchen).