The Neverending Upscale Discussion Thread * Summary=#457

Discussion in 'Consoles' started by mrcorbo, Aug 3, 2007.

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  1. Quaz51

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    the hardware horizontal scaler (horizontal probably because the output pixel flux for display is horizontal scan line, it's more easy to upscale horizontaly) upscale at 2/1, 3/2, 4/3 and 6/5 ratio >>> 960x1080 , 1280x1080 ,1440x1080 ,1600x1080

    GTHD use 1440x1080
    Rub'a'dub use 1600x1080
    Stardust HD use 1280x1080

    i not tested Lair (because europe)
     
    #321 Quaz51, Sep 28, 2007
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  2. Quaz51

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    in 1080p output NG is blured because it's strange software upscale, i think they are two rescale cumulated, perhaps downscale and upscale , or rescale software + rescale hardware .. but native resolution in 1080p output is 1280x720
     
    #322 Quaz51, Sep 28, 2007
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  3. djskribbles

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    interesting... thanks Quaz51!
     
  4. patsu

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    I just read this thread very quickly. In one sentence:

    You guys are nuts ! (in a respectable way) :twisted:


    The gaming industry has no future with critics like you. But hats off to those who have spent so much time helping us understand the current state of this/next-gen better.
     
  5. PaperThin

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    Has anyone looked to see if Halo is doing horizontal scaling as well? If the main reason Bungie chose to use 640 vertical pixels is the edram limitation as opposed to pixel fillrate, then it seems to me that 1024 horizontal pixels would be a natural choice.

    1024 x 640 framebuffer and z-buffer with 2x multisampling and fp10 hdr = (1024 * 640 * 4 * 2 * 2) = 10 Megs on the nose

    On the other hand, if they stayed with a 1280-wide framebuffer then I don't really see what they could do with a 640-tall buffer that wouldn't also work with a 720-tall buffer.
     
  6. Laa-Yosh

    Laa-Yosh I can has custom title?
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    Instead of 2x multisampling they're rendering into 2 render targets for their HDR implementation. Or MDR according to nAo ;) anyway, the numbers would add up in this case as well.
     
  7. PaperThin

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    Ahh ok. If that's what they're doing then maybe 1280x640 does make sense because presumably they would only need one z-buffer in that implementation.

    So (1280 x 640 x 4 x 2) for the frame buffer and (1280 x 640 x 4) for the z-buffer is about 9.4 Megs. But it's about 10.5 Megs if you want to do it with a 720 buffer.
     
  8. Quaz51

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    halo3 isn't 1024, Halo have 1:1 pixel ratio (1138x640)
    PGR3 and tomb raider are 1024x600 (not 1:1 ratio)

    for me the EDRAM is exactly 9.83MB (or 9.37MiB)
    1280x720 32bit AA 4x = 3 tiles of 9.83MB , the eDRAM is calibrate for 720p AA 4x
    1024x600 32bit AA 2x (PGR3 and tomb raider are 1024x600 AA 2x perhaps COD3 and first tony hawk too) = 9.83MB
    (and 640x480 32bit AA 4x = 9.83MB :D)
     
    #328 Quaz51, Sep 28, 2007
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  9. Krisc

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    Hi, I got linked to this thread from some site stating that Halo 3 was rendered in some low resolution. I was wondering if you could explain the procedure a little more thoroughly so I could gain a better understanding of how you came up with the result. Here are a few questions I would like to be answered.

    1) How do you determine how many steps to count?
    2) How do you determine how many pixels each step should have been rendered without any scaling?
    3) What about the angle? Surely the angle determines how many steps fit in a horizontal distance. This can change the ratio, or limit the number of steps you can count.*
    4) What kind of equipment are you using to ensure that the pixels you see are the pixels being rendered? (ie, 1:1 mapping?)

    (*) In the below picture, I have demonstrated that if you count the first two steps, you get 3 pixels which is a much different ratio than the 16 steps over 18 pixels. This result applied to 720 gives us 480.

    Thank you!
     
  10. Krisc

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  11. nAo

    nAo Nutella Nutellae
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    You misunderstood me, I didn't call MDR Bungie HDR implementation.
    With MDR I was referring to the FP10 render target format that Xenos supports.
    Why one would render two times the same image to do HDR rendering on a platforms that supports FP10 and FP16 render targets..it's a mistery to me.
     
  12. Strange

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    Inspired by this post I went ahead and used my D-SLR and my 24 inch Dell monitor to make some pictures of the following games that not too many people here might have access to (or havn't seem to analyzed yet)

    Hot shot golf 5
    http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1180/1451174298_248be7560e_o.jpg

    Folksoul
    http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1429/1450318479_da8668fe91_o.jpg

    Bladestorm (PS3)
    http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1142/1451175408_c6aadd02b6_o.jpg

    They were all taken by my camera on the dell screen doing 1:1 mode. So the images were all taken on a 720p screen. I tried to make the individual pixels stand out for each picture

    They all look like native 720p to me, as the pixel counts and the step counts seem to coorespond quite well.
    Any objections?

    PS: The Folksoul one was REALLY hard to find... there doesn't seem to be ANY straight edges anywhere that stand out well enough for me to get a good shot useful for analysis
     
    #332 Strange, Sep 28, 2007
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  13. StefanS

    StefanS meandering Velosoph
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    Hi Krisc!

    It's fairly simple: You have to choose your sample wide enough to have a recurring pattern of steps, where vertical resolution of the game's internal rendering does not match up with the resolution of your display. The 2/3 steps you chose is just not wide enough, it's just two step out of a whole line of aligned steps, that can't work. Quaz51 is counting from a clear step to another clear step (in his sample the pattern occurs twice).

    Basically, either you choose a fairly large sample (thus minimizing any interpretation / rounding errors) or you pay close attention to from where you start your counting and where you end it. Quaz followed those rules when he did his step counting.
     
  14. Laa-Yosh

    Laa-Yosh I can has custom title?
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    Read the slides, 'HDR the bungie way'... :)
     
  15. burnthepc

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    How I understand it

    This issue has been hit upon by the Sony Defence Force website (including Quaz51's photos). You might get a fanboy invasion in the next few hours. I've just got to grips with what you're saying so I'm putting a note in for the new visitors.

    (Note to the regulars: I'm going to change the formula here as I think it's easier in this format)

    So:

    (Number of steps on screen / real life pixels) * screen res = rendered resolution

    If something is rendered at 720p and displayed at 720p the pixels will be in a ratio of 1:1.

    or (720 / 720) * 720 = 720 rendered res.

    The key here is by examining a portion of the screen you will still get the same ratio in the brackets.

    So (here's the crux):

    http://upsilandre.free.fr/images/Halo3nativereso2.jpg

    (16 / 18) *720 = 640 rendered resolution.


    this is different to:

    (18 / 18) * 720 = 720 rendered.
     
  16. Jeff Chen

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    Wow, great findings, Quaz51!

    So this means Full HD rendering is still some distance away from us on this gen console then - neither PS3 nor XB360 is capable of it yet... sigh.

    I wish the game publishers can be frank on such facts instead of talking shits like "This game is Full HD 1080p". But meh... you can't bet on those marketing guys on telling truth, can you? ;)
     
  17. djskribbles

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    there are some games out there that are "Full HD" and there are some targeting native 1080p like GT5 and MGS4 (i'm interested if this will be native 1080p or scaled) on PS3.
     
  18. Quaz51

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    for example RR7, Full auto2, VT3, NBA07, NBA08 and some others are true 1920x1080, and on PSN too, there are lot of true 1080p games but 720p is the king in this generation
     
  19. persiannight

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    If you look at the menu background which are 3D, it looks to me that those ARE native 720p. There's a definite increase in clarity and AA then those of the 3D objects in-game. I'd like to know if you tried your test out on the menu backgrounds. I'd bet they are true 720p.
     
  20. Jeff Chen

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    Ohh, sorry. I jumped thru pages and didn't read about this.

    I just downloaded some press pics about GT5P. The real-time scenes are with no AA, in 1080p. But the playback (or maybe photo mode) screenshots are well smoothed (tho in a very strange resolution - 3840×2160).

    I bought RR7 and noticed that the jagged edges are really sharp. Kinda painful when you have to look at them ;)

    Personally I'm a Sony fanboy but what PS3 delivers now is not very promising yet. But since PS consoles seemed to have very vast potentials after years, I'm still looking forward to be amazed say 2 or 3 years later. :D
     
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