The Neverending Upscale Discussion Thread * Summary=#457

Discussion in 'Consoles' started by mrcorbo, Aug 3, 2007.

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  1. arhra

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    wha?

    You were implying that Gears renders at 960*720 for HD output (which is always 16:9).

    What it actually does is render at 1280*720 for HD output (scaling for 1080i/p), and render at 960*720 then scale down for SD output, rather than render at the usual 640*480, presumably as they can spare the fillrate easily, and it lets them use the scaler as a low-tech SSAA solution.

    "No big deal."
     
  2. Pete

    Pete Moderate Nuisance
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    I love loose translations and looser punctuation! :D

    « In fact [in being made?], edge aliasing gives a lot of information about a game's native rendering resolution (thank aliasing, for once). All of the aliased steps are forced to make one native pixel height on horizontal edges (provided the edge isn't inclined +/- 45°) and one native pixel wide (+/- 45°) on vertical edges. From this axiom it's easy to determine a game's native resolution by determining the ratio of steps to screen pixels. [How soon we forget one's singular methodology. ;)]

    Of course, for this one needs a full HD 1920x1080 matrix TV to distinguish the pixels well ([for] me, it's an LCD) and 1:1 mapping, and the bigger the better. :)

    Then, with an eye stuck to the screen (for the simpler ratios) or using a digital [?] camera one can easily determine the ratios (by doing a pixel count for 10 or 20 steps if necessary for the stranger native resolutions with complex ratios). Finally, one arrives very well to find the game's native res (except if the game is excessively blurred, but I haven't had a case of the sort), the resolutions lower than the screen's as well as those higher (the higher resolutions have to stay within a limit reasonably lower than 2x or else there's a risk of confusion with MSAA). I have elsewhere determined the native res of quite a few [?] PS3 and 360 games in this way (which I've already posted in this preceding [?] thread).

    Now, for that which concerns more specifically the Harry Potter case I immediately noticed something bizarre...

    On the vertical edges I found a 4/3 ratio which yields a native horizontal res of 2560 pixels (this was the first time I fell upon a ratio greater than one) and on the horizontal edges I found a class 2/3 ratio which gives 720 lines thus I noted [gg, Google] without ambiguity a native res of 2560x720 but of course I didn't understand this choice. [*huge breath*] What good would it do to use a frame buffer like this which requires an additional software rescale on top of a simple 1080p buffer and above all I'd noted that when I tried the game in 720p I thus had a good [?] 720p with 2xMSAA and the framerate was already weak and unstable so I don't see how they would try to propose a resolution two times greater without more framerate problems. [*passes out*]

    And then on top of that it had a very surprising detail which intrigued me greatly[.] There were these dotted lines which were on horizontal edges at the spot where one would normally observe MSAA. That's where I thought of this idea of using two 720p MSAA buffers as a single 2560x720 framebuffer which would ultimately rescale in 1080p and when I simulated this idea I found exactly what I observed on the Harry Potter screens (notably these very distinct dotted lines and only [?] on horizontal edges) and so the explanation was evidently this one. [Insert joke alluding to run-on sentences here.]

    To conclude [?], the game edges in 1080p give the impression of a native 2560x720 resolution but the surface of polygons (shaders/textures) doesn't propose anything more than 720p, and one has in bonus the pretence of a 2x vertical ordered grid (thus on horizontal edges) MSAA effect under the form of dotted lines (as if it were alpha coverage).

    Difficult to say if it's truly preferable to simple mode 720p with a true MSAA but it has the distinction of being original. »
     
  3. Acert93

    Acert93 Artist formerly known as Acert93
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    We all make mistakes, but could be tone down the banter/jump-at-any-oppurtunity mindset? Even if your forgot to add "4:3" to your comment, your post makes no sense. Different Aspect ratios and different display resolutions (like SD) tend to have different render resolutions than 720p display targets. As a friendly suggestion, I would ask that you take a deep breath and post with a little less tilt. It will have a great impact on your post quality and the responses you receive from the B3D communituy :smile:
     
  4. Quaz51

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    thanks [​IMG]
     
    #224 Quaz51, Sep 16, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 16, 2007
  5. Quaz51

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    to illustrate my post

    [​IMG]
     
  6. Quaz51

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    Skate PS3 is 1080p output but not true 1080p, it's ~1536x864 and no AA (the X360 version is 720p but with AA and better filtering)

    other observation...
    for the PS3 version of Sega Rally the vegetation is alpha blend (better) but alpha coverage in X360 version
    for Colin McRae Dirt it's the reverse (PS3 vegetation is alpha coverage and X360 version is alpa blend)
    strange...
     
  7. Mintmaster

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    Quaz, that's a good diagram. A couple of suggestions:

    - You should draw a V shape in there too. The near horizontal and near vertical test lines suggest that this 2xAA pattern is as good as an ordered grid 4xAA pattern

    - In the "mix of two MSAA buffers" case, it's better to use 960x1080 buffers w/ 2xAA and expand it to 1080p

    Maybe I'll make my own chart. There was another thread where we made extensive comparisons of this sort using a test screenshot, but I can't remember which one right now.
     
  8. AlBran

    AlBran Ferro-Fibrous
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    Good luck finding it in the Lair thread. ;)
     
  9. Quaz51

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    it's a MSAA 2x with rotated grid of course and the diagram is in conformity with this, just to compare this type of line where appear the harry potter artifact


    I just want to show the strange method use in Harry Potter, I'm not convinced myself with this method, i agree with you for 960x1080 buffer alternative (that need some additional pixel but avoid software upscale) or just no 1080p mode (720p mode with TV upscale)
     
    #229 Quaz51, Sep 22, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 23, 2007
  10. [maven]

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    Has anyone actually taken the Halo 3 final release apart (as quite a few people — me not included :( — have gotten the retail version already) and counted sloped pixels to figure out which resolution it is running at?

    And thanks for those comparisons from multi-platform games, Quaz.
     
  11. Acert93

    Acert93 Artist formerly known as Acert93
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    A Polish review someone translated mentioned no AA, so it is almost surely 720p. Kind of sad after they had MSAA in the E3 2006 trailer (this is the engine) and the talk of even 1080p recently.
     
  12. Quaz51

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    tuesday for me
     
  13. AlBran

    AlBran Ferro-Fibrous
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    From what I could tell there was no AA in a lot of places during the trailer. There's a bunch of trickery with the smoke and bloom in the first half of the trailer, but there are definite signs of polygon edge aliasing. Also keep in mind that the trailer was mostly shades of brown :p

    That 1080p @60fps thing was just some silly wishful thinking. Frankie talked about it in one of their updates, debunking it.
     
  14. kyleb

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  15. Laa-Yosh

    Laa-Yosh I can has custom title?
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    Gamespot review screenshots indicate absolutely no AA and AF. A bit of a disappointment - if the flagship game can't have them, others will probably be lacking in these too.

    Edit: though it looks like they've done something with the gamma, screens are way too bright.
     
    #235 Laa-Yosh, Sep 23, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 23, 2007
  16. betan

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  17. AlBran

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    On the landscapes I find a bunch of jaggies, especially when the camera turns with the capital ship coming onto screen. Of course, that's when you don't watch the 640x360 version. ;)

    If you watch the actual 720p footage off of bungie, the aliasing is a lot clearer. Gametrailers has somehow taken to calling 640*360 HD even when you download them. :|

    edit: That's not to say it was glaringly obvious. It was when I was doing frame-by-frame analysis in a far-fetched search for story secrets that I realized there wasn't AA (at least on everything). The Chief manages to escape that for the most part as he walks by.
     
  18. Quaz51

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    I tested Halo3 and.... not 720p :shock: it's exactly the same resolution that perfect dark, ~1138x640 with no AA, no aniso (and 30fps) :shock:
    Why? HDR FP16 and no tiling ?
     
  19. nAo

    nAo Nutella Nutellae
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    Dunno why but overall you have 27% less pixels to shade than you'd have rendering a 720p image, which can be a good thing if you're limited by pixel shaders.
    At 12 bytes per pixel (8 + 4) it also nicely fits in edram..
     
  20. betan

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    Thanks for the confirmation, the picture I posted is similarly upscaled.

    Can you please check the screenshot tool's output, particularly its native resolution and AA?
     
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