The mobile OS discussion thread

[Shifty Geezer]

This thread exists to discuss the pros, cons, and marketplace of available mobile OSes as used for gaming platforms, including the rumoured PSPhone and the announced WinMo7 Live! phone.

What are the pros and cons of the OSes (not the hardware, although required hardware and hardware efficiencies come into it), current markets, and predicted/possibly future markets?

There'll be none of that childish 'my phone is better than your phone' crap that has plagued the other threads where this has come up. Facts and figures and respectful arguments, or nothing.

And on that subject, eastmen raised a point that has me wondering. ..

Don't see how that will work. If andriod 3 sets a minimum requirement for hardware support then suddenly google is right back to 0 for installed base and many consumers who own devices from earlier in the year that wont be supported with andriod 3.0 will look else where in the future. Then there will be andriod 1.5 users , 2.1 , 1.8 ,2.2 , 3.0 and then 3.1 and then 3.2

Mobiles get updated constantly, and are outdated within a year. For application developers, this is equivalent to having to support a dozen different consoles at the same time. How robust are the VM's that sit on this OSes, such that compatibility isn't an issue, or is mobile development plagued with the sort of random bugs that PC development can have? Is it better for a platform to not progress its OS, but build up a stronger library based on the old OS, kinda like how Vista didn't get very far because although technically better than XP, XP ran all the software everyone had whereas switching to Vista could introduce compatibility problems.

Or in brief, have much is BC and legacy support impacting mobile OSes, and how is that being addressed (for example, is WinMo 7 BC with other versions, or a standalone product that forgoes legacy support for a new, more efficient architecture)?

 

[makattack]

What are the pros and cons of the OSes (not the hardware, although required hardware and hardware efficiencies come into it), current markets, and predicted/possibly future markets?

As I see it, in the Mobile market, we have a situation where Apple, RIM and Palm have the advantage of having fewer OS versions and fewer Hardware platforms to support.

Unfortunately, Google, and MS (admittedly, I know least about the MS Win7 Mobile platform) offer the most headache for developers in terms of forcing us, if we want the greatest potential install base, to test against all released OS versions and all possible hardware configurations (with screen size and keyboard/trackball availability being the most troublesome for me).

What I love about android is that I can have the phone I need: a touch screen with physical keyboard and trackball cursor controls. Of course, that doesn't stop manufacturers from releasing phones that don't have keyboards nor trackballs. Some of them are wildly popular. Unfortunately, there are many apps that require or are practically unusable without those hardware features. Two I have installed on my Android 1.6 running HTC G1: Doom and ConnectBot are just not/barely usable without a keyboard and trackball. My Android SDK setup includes all OS libs and VMs from 1.5-2.2 -- testing and debugging on all those soft phones is a very slow and tedious process.

 

[Ike Turner]

As I see it, in the Mobile market, we have a situation where Apple, RIM and Palm have the advantage of having fewer OS versions and fewer Hardware platforms to support.

Unfortunately, Google, and MS (admittedly, I know least about the MS Win7 Mobile platform) offer the most headache for developers in terms of forcing us, if we want the greatest potential install base, to test against all released OS versions and all possible hardware configurations (with screen size and keyboard/trackball availability being the most troublesome for me).

Nope it's no longer the case with Windows Phone 7. There's only one set of hardware specifications that the developers have to target (with or without hardware keyboarrds, bigger screen etc (but always wvga res). Forget everything you knew about WM6 etc. WP7 is a total reboot and is in some ways identical to Apple's iOS platform. Android is now the only OS that looks like a total pay to support and develop for because of the hardware fragmentation.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

What's the roadmap for WP7 like? Are they taking an Apple, one-refresh per year, or is it more progressive, such that there'll remain the Win7 core, and improvements will be added as modules or such for the next few years? Otherwise over x years, there'll be x versions of system to worry about, and this will be the same problem repeating itself whatever OS.

 

[Ike Turner]

What's the roadmap for WP7 like? Are they taking an Apple, one-refresh per year, or is it more progressive, such that there'll remain the Win7 core, and improvements will be added as modules or such for the next few years? Otherwise over x years, there'll be x versions of system to worry about, and this will be the same problem repeating itself whatever OS.

They aren't saying much but it will be more of a added module stuff as you said. For exmaple MS can update the Browser without requiring a firmware update. So it will be more fexible than Apple's updates I think. They only said that we should expected constant updates with new features (not once a year like Apple). And it won't be as painfull as Android because OEMs and carriers can't costumize the OS (only ad 60Mb of pre-installed apps and hubs) everything else (UI, drivers etc is handled by MS).

 

[Lazy8s]

Transition effects in the GUI do a better job of keeping up with user input and are drawn at a higher rate on iOS, making for a more responsive experience. Links and icons that are small can still be clicked which enhances accuracy. The range of touch and multi-touch gestures is broad enough to preclude the need for and overcomplication of a fixed menu button. On the whole with the integration of OpenGL ES and likely soon to be pushed even further with OpenCL, iOS is better architected to allow users to interact with the large amounts of data they can access on their small device.

Android's inclusion of a functional implementation of Flash in the browser, keyboards with options for Swype and especially Dragon Dictation which enables voice dictation into any text box in any app, and also Google exclusives like free turn-by-turn voice navigation in Maps gives Android the definite edge in features.

 

[dobwal]

In terms of games everyone is chasing Apple right now. Android is drastically far behind and W7 phones will probably have a leg up game wise over Android at introduction. The reason being is Android marketplace's one sore spots is its game library.

I knew that Android was at a disadvantage in terms of market offerings when I switched over to a Galaxy S phone but I didn't think that the difference between the two gaming library would be as stark as it is right now. It like night and day. EA and Gameloft are the two biggest mobile gaming developers right now and both don't really support Android. The only saving grace for Android are the emulators that exist but they might also be the reason the marketplace is rather barren.

This could drastically change however as the sales of Android have catapulted into outerspace.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Is the reason for a lack of developer support lack of install abse then? Because Apple's developer relation seems horrific to me. Such that I wouldn't want to attempt an iOS application. Then again I wouldn't want to attempt an Android one either if it requires support for 6 different OSes and 128 different hardware configurations! I'd have thought game development on Android would be rapid as it's an open market at this point, meaning you'll get a lot more presence than on iPhone. A medium fish in a small pond rather than a big pond, and all that.

 

[dobwal]

Is the reason for a lack of developer support lack of install abse then? Because Apple's developer relation seems horrific to me. Such that I wouldn't want to attempt an iOS application. Then again I wouldn't want to attempt an Android one either if it requires support for 6 different OSes and 128 different hardware configurations! I'd have thought game development on Android would be rapid as it's an open market at this point, meaning you'll get a lot more presence than on iPhone. A medium fish in a small pond rather than a big pond, and all that.

http://developer.android.com/index.html

I think Google is trying to create programming enviroment dissimilar to Windows which doesn't require all the QA and QC work regarding multiple OSes and hardware configurations.


Historical Distribution
The following stacked line graph provides a history of the relative number of active Android devices running different versions of the Android platform. It also provides a valuable perspective of how many devices your application is compatible with, based on the platform version.

Notice that the platform versions are stacked on top of each other with the oldest active version at the top. This format indicates the total percent of active devices that are compatible with a given version of Android. For example, if you develop your application for the version that is at the very top of the chart (1.5), then your application is compatible with 100% of active devices (and all future versions), because all Android APIs are forward compatible. Or, if you develop your application for a version lower on the chart, then it is currently compatible with the percentage of devices indicated on the y-axis, where the line for that version meets the y-axis on the right.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

How does the application distribution model vary between platforms? And are WM7 games associated wtih XNA and Live!, and so work through the same Indie channel as XB360, or can you create games for WM7 as standalone apps?

 

[AzBat]

I'm pretty sure we haven't gotten the whole truth on what your money gets you yet. The only thing we know for sure is that every Xbox Live title on WP7 will have a free trial and that Microsoft Points will not be needed. The non-Xbox Live games you'll see on the marketplace will all be standalone apps even if there's only 1 line of code difference. We know this because all apps & games will be submitted to Microsoft for authorization. There won't be a peer review system at all. This is why I think we won't see cross-platform games showing up on WP7 & Indie Games simultaneously. However, I could see Microsoft giving developers the ability to sell cross-platform bundles for WP7 & Live Arcade. Kind of like how you can purchase the "Play Anywhere" bundle on Game Room titles.

Tommy McClain

 

[scooby_dooby]

How does the application distribution model vary between platforms?

What do you mean? Essentially everything is filtered by the marketplace, your Application can declare a list of things that it requires, and then only devices which have that hardware will see the apps when they search the market.

This can be extended as far down as CPU architecture, for example, the upcoming release of Adobe AIR for Android will only be targeting devices using ARM7 CPU's, the marketplace simply won't expose that runtime to a lower class device.

Regarding games, I don't think hardware is much of a issue for developing (haven't made one myself) but it seems to me all the API's for drawing on canvas, or via OpenGL are the same, and the only difference the device makes would be how many frames it can run per second.

The games will come to Android, for the past while there hasn't been that much opportunity for developers to make serious money in that space, but I think that's all changing now. I saw a recent report that 60% of mobile developers are targeting Android going forward, sales are going through the roof too.

Android is just hitting it's stride now, the OS has finally matured in 2.2, the latest breed of phones N1, Galaxy-S, Evo4G are the first truly powerful breed of Android phones with hi resolution and fast CPU's, so it's all sort of coming together. The 1Ghz snapdragon CPU is shared by all of these phones, and is really quite a beast. I think the one weak point is the GPU's in these things, relative to iPhone, but admittedly I don't know alot about that area.

Rumours are swirling of a 2Ghz HTC coming at the end of the year. Can't wait to see what we're going to be looking at even 12mths from now.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

What do you mean?

Simply the mechanics of the user and how developers work with that. Apple require devs to submit to the App store, and if accepted they become part of the great mass of apps. All executables pass through Apple. In contrast on PC, you can put an executable up and have people download it without MS getting involved. Do MS and Google require involvement in the publishing/distribution side like Apple, or is it completely open like PC, or somewhere in the middle?

 

[scooby_dooby]

Simply the mechanics of the user and how developers work with that. Apple require devs to submit to the App store, and if accepted they become part of the great mass of apps. All executables pass through Apple. In contrast on PC, you can put an executable up and have people download it without MS getting involved. Do MS and Google require involvement in the publishing/distribution side like Apple, or is it completely open like PC, or somewhere in the middle?

Well PC has no marketplace to speak of

I haven't gone through this process yet, but as far as I know Google simply does testing on your App to make sure it works, doesn't crash and is generally functional. If it is, you're app is posted.

No censoring. No risk for a developer to pour hundreds of hours of blood sweat and tears, only to be denied access, or kicked out one day with no decent explanation.

It also means less quality control of course, but the whole quality control angle is a bit of a bogus argument. Quality will come naturally when the money is there, and production values increase.

The reason iPhone has such nice apps alot of the time is not because Apple has strict QA. It's because companies are able to invest 150k in building an application, and know they stand a decent chance of being profitable.

 

[dobwal]

Simply the mechanics of the user and how developers work with that. Apple require devs to submit to the App store, and if accepted they become part of the great mass of apps. All executables pass through Apple. In contrast on PC, you can put an executable up and have people download it without MS getting involved. Do MS and Google require involvement in the publishing/distribution side like Apple, or is it completely open like PC, or somewhere in the middle?

While Apple has a strict policy of all apps coming from the marketplace with the only workaround being to jailbreak your phone. Google leaves it up to manufacturers as ATT attempts to block non market apps and filter out some market apps. Even then you can use ADP and put your phone in debug mode and still download apps to Android from a laptop.

 

[Xmas]

Android is just hitting it's stride now, the OS has finally matured in 2.2, the latest breed of phones N1, Galaxy-S, Evo4G are the first truly powerful breed of Android phones with hi resolution and fast CPU's, so it's all sort of coming together. The 1Ghz snapdragon CPU is shared by all of these phones, and is really quite a beast.

Snapdragon is the name of Qualcomm's SoC family using their ARMv7 CPU called Scorpion. The Galaxy S uses Samsung's S5PC110 which has a 1 GHz ARM Cortex-A8 CPU ("Hummingbird"). Other high-end Android phones like Motorola's Droid X or Droid 2 use TI's OMAP3630, also with a 1 GHz Cortex-A8.

Rumours are swirling of a 2Ghz HTC coming at the end of the year.

Quite unlikely, given that it would have to be a SoC which hasn't even been announced yet. Dual core 1+ GHz is a different matter, though.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Thanks for the clarification dude I knew Droid and Droid X were sporting different CPU's, but for some reason I thouhgt Galaxy S was running Snapdragon too.
Aren't these all ArmV7 processors though? Or do they just all support the ARMV7 instruction set?


You are of course right about the 2ghz CPU, for some reason when I first read dual core a couple months back, my mind leapt to 2ghz..durr.

Still some badass phones coming out in the next 6-12

EDIT: Or maybe I wasn't wrong? Admittedly, this seems very fishy now that I look again:

RUMOR: http://www.androidguys.com/2010/07/01/rumor-2ghz-htc-sabor-arrive-gingerbread-late-2010/
REBUTTAL: http://briefmobile.com/why-the-htc-sabor-is-fake



http://www.techeye.net/mobile/htc-plans-2ghz-and-dual-core-smartphones-by-year-end

 

[Lazy8s]

Scorpion and Cortex-A8 are both ARMv7 CPUs, i.e. based on the ARMv7 ISA.

Scorpion implementations seem to benchmark only marginally faster, if at all faster, than the Cortex-A8s. While I believe Qualcomm's customizations have achieved advantages as they've indicated, I also believe they've cut some corners in typical Qualcomm fashion to which they understandably don't want to draw attention.

When TI was running their mobile Cortex-A8 at 550 MHz compared to Scorpion's 1 GHz, I suspected the majority of that discrepency resulted from Qualcomm being more aggressive in clocking than any architectural advantage. That assessment looked on point as the recent 45nm comparable releases have narrowed that gap greatly.

 

[Exophase]

I still haven't seen any of these Scorpion vs Cortex-A8 benchmarks, only several referrals to them. Anyone have any on hand?

Scorpion is not a customization of Cortex-A8. We don't know that much about it but what has been revealed about the architecture bears no close similarity. There's also 2x the floating-point NEON width, and possibly more integer multiply width, but the NEON pipelines on Scorpion seem really long so the latency is probably worse.

The clock speed advantage was likely due to longer pipelines. Qualcomm is releasing 1.5GHz Scorpions soon; I don't think we'll be seeing 1.5GHz Cortex-A8s on 45nm and while ARM promotes up to 2GHz with Cortex-A9 it's only attainable with a much less power efficient process (pretty much the same story for 800MHz Atom vs 1.6MHz Atom)