The Caveat Wars: Gap Width Measurements *spin ad nauseam*

[Recop]

F1 and Doom dont show a larger gap, Black Ops 3 is not recent, and Titan Fall 2 seems consistent with what we saw in the past at most.

If we consider that the usual gap is what we're seeing in WD2, then yes : 900p vs 1080p + slight performance advantage on PS4.

In F1 you have a large performance gap (constant 5/10fps lead on PS4) despite the lower resolution on XB1.

Doom which is considered by DF as one of the most impressive game of this gen also shows an unusual large gap : "his highlights one area where a PS4 exhibits an advantage over Xbox One: it boasts a full 1080p output for the vast majority of the duration, with minor drops in resolution occurring in select circumstances. In contrast, Xbox One regularly struggles to hit full 1080p, more often coming in around 1472x828 or lower.

When it comes to performance, both versions aim to deliver a steady 60 frames per second update and the game comes remarkably close to delivering just that. On PlayStation 4, the majority of battles play out with only the smallest of drops. We've already presented one of the worst-case scenarios in video form, but the overall experience feels perceptually rock solid to the point where we were surprised to find any drops at all after analysing the footage.

On Xbox One, performance isn't quite as robust but it still manages to feel great. During many of the larger battles, frame-rates tumble into the mid-50s with some dips all the way down into the 40s."

The lowest resolution seen in TF2 on XB1 is 480p... this is a much much lower resolution than 720p and a bigger gap than 720p vs 1080p...

You can reject Black Ops 3 if you want, but i wonder if it's not worse in Infinite Warfare :

 

[Globalisateur]

F1 and Doom dont show a larger gap, Black Ops 3 is not recent, and Titan Fall 2 seems consistent with what we saw in the past at most.

Infinity warfare is recent and runs like shit on XB1 (according to both NX Gamer and VG tech youtube channels) with a much lower resolution than on PS4.

Why do you think Digital foundry still hasn't done any Infinity Warfare face-off ? With BF1 it's just the most 'important' game of the year on consoles. They are probably waiting for a patch for the XB1 version. They didn't wait for the patches that resolved the odd framerate drops seen on the Pro versions of Watchdogs 2 and Skyrim when they published their articles about those games though.

 

[function]

We still doing caveat wars?

In war, a desire for understanding is the first casualty.

 

[mpg1]

How many of these engines support and have been completely optimized for DX12?.....*ducks*

 

[iroboto]

How many of these engines support and have been completely optimized for DX12?.....*ducks*

None. But that moving to that type of engine would benefit both consoles. I think Fb3 could be the furthest along

 

[function]

None. But that moving to that type of engine would benefit both consoles. I think Fb3 could be the furthest along

X1's customised command processor has flares out requesting supply drop.

 

[Recop]

How many of these engines support and have been completely optimized for DX12?.....*ducks*

Actually since most games have to run on PC, i think that the PS4 API hasn't any particular advantage for third party developers...

Most games are built around the DX API.

http://www.gamepur.com/news/12946-w...one-api-says-ps4-little-more-complicated.html

 

[iroboto]

Actually since most games have to run on PC, i think that the PS4 API hasn't any particular advantage for third party developers...

Most games are built around the DX API.

http://www.gamepur.com/news/12946-w...one-api-says-ps4-little-more-complicated.html

DX11. We are still moving away from DX9 engines. You also quoted a really old article when XBO was still leveraging DX11 and didn't fully have its lower overhead driver yet.

Regardless.

Long way to dx12/Vulcan based ones.

 

[Recop]

DX11. We are still moving away from DX9 engines. You also quoted a really old article when XBO was still leveraging DX11 and didn't fully have its lower overhead driver yet.

Regardless.

Long way to dx12/Vulcan based ones.

Maybe but XB1 is not a PC...

Also, you can compare TW3 to Blood Vine : nothing has changed and the gap is still the same between both games despite the more recent XB1 drivers. We got a ton of hype on XB1 SDK, but i didn't see any particular improvement in third party games... we don't really see the 720p/1080p scenario anymore but that's all...

Actually, most of the time this is the PS4 version that is upgraded through patches : see GTA5, TW3, Dying Light, Modern Warfare, Assetto Corsa, etc.

So, the overhead seems to be more an issue on PS4 because the games are built for DX...

 

[iroboto]

Maybe but XB1 is not a PC...

Also, you can compare TW3 to Blood Vine : nothing has changed and the gap is still the same between both games despite the more recent XB1 drivers. We got a ton of hype on XB1 SDK, but i didn't see any particular improvement in third party games... we don't really see the 720p/1080p scenario anymore but that's all...

Actually, most of the time this is the PS4 version that is upgraded through patches : see GTA5, TW3, Dying Light, Modern Warfare, Assetto Corsa, etc.

So, the overhead seems to be more an issue on PS4 because the games are built for DX...

Drivers? This has nothing to do about improving performance with drivers and the API.

We're talking about re-writing an entire rendering pipeline, because the APIs themselves enable a completely different way of rendering.
That takes years to overhaul an engine in this way. Aside from Oxide games, which built their engine from scratch with Mantle/DX12, no other engine I know of is built on this style of pipeline. Everyone else has deliverables, we are very much rooted in older ways of rendering right now.

Even games that are DX12 _only_ still have a pipeline that follows DX9/11.

APIs are not programming languages, I feel like there is some confusion for you that needs clearing on this point.
In order for you to render onto the screen, a sequence of events must occur through the API to make it happen.

Lower Overhead APIs give you more control over what happens and how that sequence happens, this is because you are targeting 1 device/GPU. Having lower level APIs allow you to remove redundant steps in the sequence because you know whats there. But the sequence themselves are still there.

When we moved from DX9 to DX11 the sequence fundamentally stayed the same. We added compute shaders and some other junk.

The move from DX11 to DX12, was a fundamental _change_ in the SEQUENCES required to render. We aren't there yet, but there are very high hopes for performance increases to both systems when this eventual turn over happens.

And you keep making this about some gap between PS4 and XBO. Which I frankly have not been discussing for some time now.

final edit: one of our posters here and graphics programmer for Order 1886 wrote this article. Please read:
https://mynameismjp.wordpress.com/2016/03/25/bindless-texturing-for-deferred-rendering-and-decals/

 

[Nesh]

If we consider that the usual gap is what we're seeing in WD2, then yes : 900p vs 1080p + slight performance advantage on PS4.

In F1 you have a large performance gap (constant 5/10fps lead on PS4) despite the lower resolution on XB1.

Doom which is considered by DF as one of the most impressive game of this gen also shows an unusual large gap : "his highlights one area where a PS4 exhibits an advantage over Xbox One: it boasts a full 1080p output for the vast majority of the duration, with minor drops in resolution occurring in select circumstances. In contrast, Xbox One regularly struggles to hit full 1080p, more often coming in around 1472x828 or lower.

When it comes to performance, both versions aim to deliver a steady 60 frames per second update and the game comes remarkably close to delivering just that. On PlayStation 4, the majority of battles play out with only the smallest of drops. We've already presented one of the worst-case scenarios in video form, but the overall experience feels perceptually rock solid to the point where we were surprised to find any drops at all after analysing the footage.

On Xbox One, performance isn't quite as robust but it still manages to feel great. During many of the larger battles, frame-rates tumble into the mid-50s with some dips all the way down into the 40s."

The lowest resolution seen in TF2 on XB1 is 480p... this is a much much lower resolution than 720p and a bigger gap than 720p vs 1080p...

You can reject Black Ops 3 if you want, but i wonder if it's not worse in Infinite Warfare :

If the gap is increasing the differences have to be consistent, across all games or at least for most which isnt the case.

 

[djskribbles]

I think everyone is taking individual examples or small sample sizes and are trying to prove a point with them -- either that the gap is growing, or shrinking. There's nothing to me to suggest definitively that either is true.

To me, the 'gap' hasn't really shrunk or grown... it is basically the same. There were a few exceptions near launch where a few developers seemed to struggle with the XB1, but they were an exception.
There are a few games where XB1 is closer than usual, but they are usually either not very demanding games, or Microsoft has marketing rights to these games and XB1 was most likely the lead platform.
On the flip side, there are some games where Sony has marketing rights and the gap appears to be bigger than usual.

 

[Recop]

We're talking about re-writing an entire rendering pipeline, because the APIs themselves enable a completely different way of rendering.
That takes years to overhaul an engine in this way. Aside from Oxide games, which built their engine from scratch with Mantle/DX12, no other engine I know of is built on this style of pipeline. Everyone else has deliverables, we are very much rooted in older ways of rendering right now.

I could say exactly the same thing for the PS4 API... so, at the end, the situation is the same for both consoles...

mpg1 talked about DX12 as if it could eventually close the gap. Based on my previous statement, it's useless to brings DX12 on the table... because anything you could potentially say about DX12 is true for the PS4 API.

No DX12 game from scratch ? Same for the PS4. Even ND admitted that their UC4 engine is based on an evolution of their PS3 games : http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/05/31/naughty-dog-explains-its-next-gen-game-engine

DX12 is an improvement ? Sony can improve its API too.

Etc.

 

[Recop]

If the gap is increasing the differences have to be consistent, across all games or at least for most which isnt the case.

Actually, i agree with djskribbles : overall, the gap is about the same as before.

You didn't agree with me because you disputed my first claim : "the gap will remain the same until the end of the gen"

This means that for most games, we will remain in 900p/1080p scenario + generally a slight performance advantage on PS4.

Even at launch, you had games like NFS... an isolated example doesn't mean anything.

Anyway, so far the data confirm our scepticism. People who expected a lower gap are simply contradicted by the facts.

 

[iroboto]

I could say exactly the same thing for the PS4 API... so, at the end, the situation is the same for both consoles...

mpg1 talked about DX12 as if it could eventually close the gap. Based on my previous statement, it's useless to brings DX12 on the table... because anything you could potentially say about DX12 is true for the PS4 API.

No DX12 game from scratch ? Same for the PS4. Even ND admitted that UC4 engine is based on an evolution of their PS3 games : http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/05/31/naughty-dog-explains-its-next-gen-game-engine

DX12 is an improvement ? Sony can improve its API too.

Etc.

You definitely do not read any of my posts ever. It's pretty obvious that your need to defend Sony has blinded you of any reading abilities. I have already stated and discussed what you posted, in fewer words.

The digital foundry thread is not about discussing gap between the two consoles, perhaps in 2013 it was, but were in 2016. You're not opening the eyes of anyone. You aren't saving people of making a bad purchasing decision.

What we discuss now are the evolution of the games, where they are headed, and what more can be accomplished with the OG boxes. Because this is an interesting point of discussion with the arrival of mid generation refresh. Is it still worth it to buy the OG?

What's left to optimize on the OG consoles? That's what I'm discussing, and we aren't there yet. The fact that you only take any discussion here as a versus war is frankly sad.

 

[Nesh]

Actually, i agree with djskribbles : overall, the gap is about the same as before.

No the gap was worse. Remember when Tomb Raider was 1080p and 45-60fps on the PS4 whereas on the XB1 it was 900p 30fps?
MGS Ground Zeros 1080p, atmosphere simulation on the PS4 and 720p on the XBOX One with a simple Sky? Or PES running at 720p ib XBOX?
Almost all games had a clear advantage on the PS4. Now we also see demanding games that perform nearly as well as the PS4 versions in addition and in some fewer occasions equally

You didn't agree with me because you disputed my first claim : "the gap will remain the same until the end of the gen"

Actually you agreed to Rikimaru's claim that it is worse and you were also claiming that the gap is getting worse

Some recent games where the gap is larger than most 2014 games :

Actually, there are far more games where the gap is actually larger than before : Doom, Black Ops 3, Infinite Warfare, etc.[/QUOTE]

This means that for most games, we will remain in 900p/1080p scenario + generally a slight performance advantage on PS4.

There are some games that are the same scenario and games that fare better, but certaintly not most. And the examples I provided show that. Assasin's Creed Syndicate, BF1, Tomb Raider, Fallout 4, Hitman, Project Cars, Mad Max etc arent your typical indie game yet perform a lot better than what we were expecting.

Even at launch, you had games like NFS... an isolated example doesn't mean anything.

No it doesnt. But we dont have one or two isolated examples(even if we forget that we also had games like Alien Isolation and Destiny also performing almost identically back then)

Anyway, so far the data confirm our scepticism. People who expected a lower gap are simply contradicted by the facts.

They arent fully contradicted and you arent fully right

 

[Recop]

I am not concerned with the console war. I am strictly speaking about XBOX One's performance

Me too but my messages were deleted... this is my last message here because i promised to not post anymore in this kind of thread.

Just some facts that you can check on DF :

- TR DE is 1080p during gameplay and 900p during cutscenes on XB1, just like ROTR. The only difference is that now both games are capped at 30fps in ROTR. The graphical differences are much larger in ROTR compared to TR DE : better shadows, better motion blur, Better AO + better specular reflection on PS4.

- In Project Cars, the gap is very large : 900p vs 1080p + better AA + constant 5/10fps lead on PS4. Texture filtering seems to be better on XB1 though.

- Compared to Unity, XB1 lost its edge in Syndicate which runs better on PS4.

- The 1080p/720p scenario was an exception and is not relevant. In 2013/2014, we already had several games running at the same resolution on both consoles : Destiny, NFSR, Diablo 3, Unity, TR DE, Spiderman 2, etc.

- http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2016-dishonored-2-face-off (last face-off to date) : once again, we are in a 900p/1080p scenario. PS4 = 1080p to 1700x1080p. XB1 = 900p to 1280x900. Performances are also better on PS4. 1700x1080 has 60% more pixels than 1280x900.

The article is too evasive at first, so you have to read the text in the first image to understand that the XB1 version is running from 1600x900 to 1280x900.

"A dynamic resolution scaler is present across all formats. PS4 and the Pro consistantly operate at higher resolutions than Xbox One (base res is 1080p vs 900p) providing a sharper image. The PC version at 1080p provides similar image quality to PS4 when using TXAA 1x."

 

[Nesh]

Me too but my messages were deleted... this is my last message here because i promised to not post anymore in this kind of thread.

Just some facts that you can check on DF :

- TR DE is 1080p during gameplay and 900p during cutscenes on XB1, just like ROTR. The only difference is that now both games are capped at 30fps in ROTR. The graphical differences are much larger in ROTR compared to TR DE : better shadows, better motion blur, Better AO + better specular reflection on PS4.

Please be more specific.
Most of the things you mention according to DF are either isolated to specific areas (i.e motion blur missing in one specific area on XB1, some shadows slightly better on PS4 in very specific areas etc), and others offer such a slightly improvement that they are almost negligible.
This is still a HUGE far cry from the difference found in TR: DE

- Compared to Unity, XB1 lost its edge in Syndicate which runs better on PS4.

And now compare that to Black Flag which was 1080p on PS4 and 900p on XB1. Also Syndicate may run better on PS4 but again the gap is small.
And Unity is slightly running better on XB1. Thank you for reminding me that too.

- The 1080p/720p scenario was an exception and is not relevant. In 2013/2014, we already had several games running at the same resolution on both consoles : Destiny, NFSR, Diablo 3, Unity, TR DE, Spiderman 2, etc.

Thank you

- http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2016-dishonored-2-face-off (last face-off to date) : once again, we are in a 900p/1080p scenario. PS4 = 1080p to 1700x1080p. XB1 = 900p to 1280x900. Performances are also better on PS4. 1700x1080 has 60% more pixels than 1280x900.

The article is too evasive at first, so you have to read the text in the first image to understand that the XB1 version is running from 1600x900 to 1280x900.

"A dynamic resolution scaler is present across all formats. PS4 and the Pro consistantly operate at higher resolutions than Xbox One (base res is 1080p vs 900p) providing a sharper image. The PC version at 1080p provides similar image quality to PS4 when using TXAA 1x."

You are also a bit evasive
The resolution is also dynamic on PS4
"So the minimum resolution we saw on PS4 comes in at around 1700x1080"

I dont know what are you still trying to convince. We know that some games present a similar gap. you arent making any real point by picking only those that show a "larger" gap and ignoring those that show a smaller one.

Unless you can prove that all demanding games show the same gap, which is impossible, it is pointless to be selective, unless what you are trying to tell us is that the XB1 hasnt completely closed the gap, which is NOT what we are arguing about. We know that XB1 hasnt completely closed the gap and most likely never will. But we know that it has narrowed it in many occasions which are hard to ignore and the general picture is much more improved compared to the past

 

[Recop]

Unless you can prove that all demanding games show the same gap, which is impossible, it is pointless to be selective, unless what you are trying to tell us is that the XB1 hasnt completely closed the gap, which is NOT what we are arguing about. We know that XB1 hasnt completely closed the gap and most likely never will. But we know that it has narrowed it in many occasions which are hard to ignore and the general picture is much more improved compared to the past

The general picture is quite clear for me.

We just have to read/see DF articles/videos : http://www.eurogamer.net/?topic=digital_foundry + https://www.youtube.com/user/DigitalFoundry/videos

Games where the resolution is not the same from the most recent comparisons until the last E3 (june14/16 2016) : Dishonored 2, WD2, BF1, Infinite Warfare, TF2, Mafia 3, Deux Ex, Batman RE, F1 2016, Carmagedon, Tellate Batman

Games where the resolution is the same from the most recent comparisons until the last E3 : ROTR, Asseto Corsa, Skyrim, Bioshok collection, Dead Rising RE, RE4 RE, Marvel ultimate alliance, Hawken, RE5 RE, Lego Star Wars, Mighty N°9

I didn't count the patched games. I put the results that should not exist in black (obvious poor optimization) otherwise the trend is quite consistent.

The difference between TR DE and ROTR is simple : TR DE is capped at 30fps on XB1 and capped at 60fps on PS4. In ROTR both games are capped at 30fps. So, you can't know what would be the difference if both games were capped at 60fps.

And you didn't understand me : i said that the gap was about the same as before. Obviously, i don't count the 1080p/720p scenario because it's not relevant to me. Also, for a game like BF1 where the difference is smaller than the usual 900p/1080p difference + close framerate, you have games like Doom, Black Ops 3, TF2, Project Cars, etc. There are more AAA games above the normal difference than the contrary (below the normal difference).

I could continue with other arguments, but people might think that i'm going in a war thing while i only try to have a rational approach based on facts.

Ok, this was my last answer even though i already said it before.

 

[djskribbles]

Unless you can prove that all demanding games show the same gap, which is impossible, it is pointless to be selective, unless what you are trying to tell us is that the XB1 hasnt completely closed the gap, which is NOT what we are arguing about. We know that XB1 hasnt completely closed the gap and most likely never will. But we know that it has narrowed it in many occasions which are hard to ignore and the general picture is much more improved compared to the past

But it hasn't. You've only given a small handful of examples.

Sure the XB1 has improved from launch, in the sense that developers are no longer struggling with the hardware and we're not seeing any MGS GZ type gaps. These games were the exception... their engines clearly weren't optimized for the XB1 hardware at the time. Two of the games you keep listing were using the same engine (PES and MGS GZ).

From what I see, demanding games still show the same typical ~900p/1080p-type gap, and there are a few rare cases where the gap is either slightly smaller, or slightly bigger than usual. It depends on which console was the lead platform, and also whether or not the game is CPU limited. If the game is CPU limited and XB1 is the lead platform, there's a good chance that XB1 can perform closer to PS4. If not, then it's usually the same old situation.