Techreport comment on ATIs OpenGL Driver rewrite.

Discussion in '3D Hardware, Software & Output Devices' started by ChrisRay, Jul 30, 2004.

  1. K.I.L.E.R

    K.I.L.E.R Retarded moron
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    Why should they rewrite everything all at once?
    They are rewriting everything, just incrementally.


     
  2. jvd

    jvd
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    there are only 2 reasons why doom3 is big right now.

    1) its really good on nvidia hardware , which is something that hasn't been said for a long time on games with cutting edge graphics . 2) its id software. If it was any other game from a company with a sub par track record for fun single player games coupled with its lack of multiplayer out of the box and this game would have been burried.
     
  3. Ostsol

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    There's only one reason I can think of to do a total rewrite: if the underlying structure of the code is really bad and needs to change. If not, then simple optimization and rewriting of the driver's various components will be entirely fine. The end result may be entirely new code, but it can be done incrementally and doesn't leave you with nothing for a long time.
     
  4. trinibwoy

    trinibwoy Meh
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    What utter rubbish. So an ATI victory in Doom3 would have diminished its importance? :roll: It would have been hyped even more and X800 owners would have been dancing with glee since Nvidia was expected to perform better.
     
  5. jvd

    jvd
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    No a dead even split would have dimished it. If ati had a victory everyone that likes ati would be saying ati pwned nvidia on doom3 (like nvida fans are saying now)

    Once the wow factor of the graphics wear out the game is not all that fun. Multiplayer is also not much fun as there are only 4 people playing. There were a few times we couldn't find each other for about 20 mins from hiding in the dark so well
     
  6. trinibwoy

    trinibwoy Meh
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    Sure you're not just saying that cause it runs better on daddy's GT? :lol:
     
  7. jvd

    jvd
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    Beats me i don't have acess to it . Though i play at 1027x768 and 4x fsaa with 40+ fps on average. I can bump the res up some more but it doesn't loko right on my monitor
     
  8. trinibwoy

    trinibwoy Meh
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    Sorry for the OT but is that 40fps smooth? I'm not expecting to do much better on my 9800 at 1024x768 noAA (hopefully I can take it to 1280x1024).
     
  9. jvd

    jvd
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    Yes its smooth. (x800xt pe) . I have no complaints at all with the performance of the game .
     
  10. dan2097

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    Hmm I took the comments the opposite way as in almost saying they wern't going to make a doom 3 specific path. Am I completly wrong in thinking that if say they put the whole opengl driver team [insert jab about number of programmers here] at work for a month combing through doom 3 for sub optimal rendering commands and rewriting them with detection thus making a doom 3 path that you would in that scenario have a sudden doom3 performance boost (surely they could do that in the space on one driver release with their WHOLE opengl resources focused on it) followed only by gradual improvements through speeding up execution of general opengl commands on ATI hardware as part of the opengl rewrite?
     
  11. Dave Baumann

    Dave Baumann Gamerscore Wh...
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    Errr, given the context of this thread, how so? You obviously aren't disagreeing that the rewrite is going to take some time, so how are these "incremental" improvements going to occur in the meantime?

    Last I heard they had one reasonable optimisation in place, and at this point they have five avenues for investigation, which may or may not bear fruit.

    AFAIK it is. It got all the historical code from previous boards and then when they bought FireGL a bunch of that was thrown in as well.
     
  12. dan2097

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    Dave do you know whether ATI still has a driver optimization policy preventing app specifc optimizations? (it seems they may have revoked app specific fixs atleast in the case of fsaa)
     
  13. Dave Baumann

    Dave Baumann Gamerscore Wh...
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    The FSAA ones were not part of the "optimisation" policy, but were compatibility / support issues.

    As a general rule I think the policy is still in place, but that doesn't mean they might not alter it in specific cases. For instance, if it is the case that their memory bus is programmable, then the particular requirements of Doom3 (with its multiple passes and multiple buffers) may not get the best performance from the generic settings that are used.

    My suggestion to them was to provide a game profiling system that they could send some predefined app profiles (as NVIDIA does) which can also contain other app optimal information - this way they could provide app specific optimisation settings which the user can turn on/off if they wanted in order to get the "default" settings if thats what they wished for.
     
  14. WaltC

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    My sentiments exactly. The whole "rewrite" thing is merely a device used to imply that "ATi's OpenGL drivers are so bad they need to be rewritten"...;) (Ah, what a wonderful world it would be if technology PR was banned...:D)

    It is the nature of all IHV 3d API drivers to change gradually over time, along with changes in the APIs they address, the games they support, and the 3d hardware they must support, not to exclude changing operating system support, cpu support, etc. In this respect, contrasted with even two years ago, I'm quite sure nVidia's current OpenGL drivers can be classified accurately as "rewritten," too...:D In that respect, all API drivers regardless of the authoring IHV exist in a perpetual rewrite loop which literally has nothing whatever to do with their general quality apart from the common desire to improve them on a continuous basis.

    I think it's pretty amusing to read so many melodramatic "rewrite" comments about ATi's OpenGL drivers, comments which are based on a single, D3 pre-release benchmark run conducted under closed conditions by way of software currently unavailable for public review and inspection.

    In light of ID's statement that the game itself will be capped to 60fps by default, such frame-rate contests as were conducted during the closed tests seem almost completely superfluous to the game itself, and therefore conducted for an entirely different purpose--since obviously ID Software believes so strongly that the game doesn't get a bit better beyond 60fps that they've actually capped the frame rate of D3 to a max of 60fps. So it doesn't seem to me that we have near enough data as of yet to make any kind of general pronouncements, let alone such sweeping conclusions ...:)
     
  15. trinibwoy

    trinibwoy Meh
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    Nice defense Walt. :roll: :D
     
  16. Quitch

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    I'd agree with jvd on point two. id get away with murder, I mean, people got excited about Quake II. Quake II for christsakes! Quake was a demo of a 3D world (with nice, shallow MP), Quake II was a Voodoo showcase with neither good SP or MP. Quake III was UT with less game modes, but it had curves.

    Doom and the Cult of Carmack drive id onwards in a very powerful way.
     
  17. trinibwoy

    trinibwoy Meh
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    Lol. OK. I've never played any of the Quake games though. But the mediocrity of Id's past endeavours shouldn't take away from the excellence that is Doom3 (from what I've seen so far).
     
  18. T2k

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    I don't really see this as an excellence in terms of financials... as we said hundred times it's highly unlikely D3 will get even close to Q3's success: lack of MP, very specialized engine (indoor only, hard to mod) and very heavy competition from very good D3D-base engines.
     
  19. trinibwoy

    trinibwoy Meh
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    Well depending on your angle you can emphasize the flaws in anything. But to each their own. When you're playing Doom3 I'm sure all you'll be thinking about is Id's bottom line and the nuances of Doom3's implementation. I sure won't. Doom3 is a 'game' above and beyond all else after all. The engine behind it is a different matter. :wink:

    And are the 'hard to mod' and 'indoor only' attributes just a guess or is that set in stone somewhere? From the trailers I've seen the engine seems to be doing a good job of rendering outdoor areas.

    It's strange that nearly all Doom3 criticism is coming from the ATI camp (and from people who've never played it)....actually that's not so strange after all :lol:
     
  20. Razor04

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    Umm I thought it was the physics engine that was capped to 60 "ticks" per second and not the graphics engine that was capped to 60 "frames" per second. Correct me if I am wrong but I thought that this was the case but who knows with all the confusion that surrounded this issue in the past.
     
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