Technical investigation into PS4 and XB1 audio solutions *spawn

Discussion in 'Console Technology' started by Brad Grenz, Jun 2, 2013.

  1. ERP

    ERP Moderator
    Moderator Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2002
    Messages:
    3,669
    Likes Received:
    49
    Location:
    Redmond, WA
    To a point yes, but very few games start from scratch these days so there is something playable very early, so QA is involved very early on. Often way too early IMO.

    The games industry in general does not have a history of formally testing things, engineers obviously test their own code, but there is a lack of definition of correctness at a macro level.

    Going off on a tangent for a minute. The WORST design documents define the behavior of a particular AI, but when implemented to the letter, often when interactions outside of the scope of that design are encountered things fail very badly. The best designers describe the intent of the design so an engineer can adjust the implementation to suit, rather than getting into a never ending cycle of chasing edge cases.

    A lot of what an engineer does on a game is putz with edge cases that were not foreseen in the design, or initial implementation. Yes this happens in all large scale software to some extent, but IME it's a much bigger issue in games than in most software. It's a lot of the reason games are so difficult to estimate time on and why they slip.

    There has been a push to move these types of things directly into the hands of designers, but all you are really doing there is adding a requirement of an engineering skill set onto the designer, and basically hiring some very junior engineer hopefully with some design sensibility.
     
  2. Lalaland

    Regular

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2013
    Messages:
    596
    Likes Received:
    265

    Ooo now this is a deep dark hole, one of my principle grudges against my alma mater is that one of our lecturers was so damn obsessed with 'correctness' it drove us to the edge of a murder plot. All we ever heard of was the joys of 'B' and the Paris Metro code base. Of course 5 minutes in the real world made clear to me that projects in the real world are a lot less concerned with 'correctness' than with 'correct-ish-ness'. Of course now I work in presales so now even my 'Hello World' code comes with bonus divide-by-zero errors
     
  3. TheWretched

    Regular

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2008
    Messages:
    830
    Likes Received:
    23
    My work involves automotive ECU networking testspec and implementation. You can't even begin to imagine^^

    "We found abnormal behavior"
    "Is it customer relevant?"
    "I can't tell you that"
    "Then it's not abnormal"...

    Ah well... I changed teams recently. I hope for the better (got a bit stale after nearly 2 years).
     
    #1103 TheWretched, Jul 27, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 27, 2014
  4. imaxx

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2012
    Messages:
    131
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    cracks
    I can imagine... in automotive, there are just 3 big crack producers (+chinese)...

    Security in automotive is ZERO, including and especially the typical speed limitation for trucks. ATM only last mercedes offers quite some security, that's why there are x00k bounties on their key system (let you guess who MIGHT have interest on such things...).
     
  5. Cyan

    Cyan orange
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2007
    Messages:
    8,572
    Likes Received:
    2,293
    So sorry to hear that. The audio team made one of the most interesting chips in the entire Xbox One.

    I wish those people find a new job soon. Yours were truly great timing. Still, I think SHAPE will be always used for future consoles, 'cos it is so fine it can pass the test of time.

    Using that logic, people don't care about 3D either and HD...

    This to me just means that the chip was great enough so they wanted to sack some people and keep the patents and design to use them in future devices.

    Which doesn't mean that sound isn't as important, just that they got what they wanted and when layoffs kicked in they dismissed the entire team. :sad: Still... I am surprised it was the ENTIRE team. Some brilliant mind there should be kept in the team or moved to another division.

    Additionally, I wonder how many transistors SHAPE uses, but it should be very scalable these days.

    Anyway, thanks to bkilian :smile2: and the rest of the people who made it possible. The Xbox One would be so very mediocre without it...., hampering either the CPU or the GPU when it is a console that needs them the most.
     
  6. bkilian

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2006
    Messages:
    1,539
    Likes Received:
    3
    Just the test portion of the team. I don't know if the rest of the team was impacted.
     
  7. DrJay24

    Veteran

    Joined:
    May 16, 2008
    Messages:
    3,891
    Likes Received:
    633
    Location:
    Internet
    http://gamingbolt.com/xbox-one-esra...e-development-ps4xbox-similar-from-audio-side
     
  8. Shortbread

    Shortbread Island Hopper
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2013
    Messages:
    3,920
    Likes Received:
    2,061

    I mentioned this quite a few times in previous threads... but yes, the mini speaker built in the PS4 controller is quite unique. IMHO, it’s more innovative in terms of immersion, than the wonky touchpad. Even with a nice 7.1 surround sound setup, just hearing a voice or eerie environmental effect through the DS4 speaker, brings a nice added depth towards sound immersion.

    Sometimes it’s the little things that can make you smile… :smile:
     
  9. DSoup

    DSoup meh
    Legend Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2007
    Messages:
    11,166
    Likes Received:
    5,974
    Location:
    London, UK
    I agree. It sounds gimmicky, but based on the games I've played, it's being used really well. Voice logs and voice overs coming through the speaker are great. I'm surprised at the quality of the audio.
     
    #1109 DSoup, Nov 1, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 1, 2014
  10. eastmen

    Legend Subscriber

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2008
    Messages:
    9,995
    Likes Received:
    1,503
    Yes the mini speaker in the wii controllers was also quite unique but sadly it was mostly used a gimick . I hope they find better uses for the ps4 one.

    I'd be interested to hear what the detriments to a dedicated audio chip would be ? With ubisoft saying these cpu's are weak i would think being able to off load sound to a dedicated hardware would be a god send .
     
  11. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    41,069
    Likes Received:
    11,703
    Location:
    Under my bridge
    Coming from an audio middleware company, it may be implementation and execution of their audio pipeline that's an issue for them. He probably has little interest in the CPU overhead difference because it doesn't impact them directly.
     
  12. Cyan

    Cyan orange
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2007
    Messages:
    8,572
    Likes Received:
    2,293
    shredenvain and mosen like this.
  13. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    41,069
    Likes Received:
    11,703
    Location:
    Under my bridge
    The mix of 'AudioKinetic' and 'AudioKinectic' is pretty painful! Poor company.
     
    Cyan likes this.
  14. Cyan

    Cyan orange
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2007
    Messages:
    8,572
    Likes Received:
    2,293
    Yes, that caught my attention too, that's a kinetic term mix-up. It's not worse than a Peter Molyneux or Molineux mix tho. :D The molybdenum is quite an odd developer --I don't miss that developer on consoles..
     
  15. Davros

    Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2004
    Messages:
    15,066
    Likes Received:
    2,395
    It doesn't really

    and it doesn't really get anyone enthusiastic about shape
    Answer : Not Really
     
    #1115 Davros, Jan 20, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2015
    Scott_Arm likes this.
  16. Cyan

    Cyan orange
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2007
    Messages:
    8,572
    Likes Received:
    2,293
    That sounds like a tantrum, more than anything else. He says nothing of the sort. The interviewee just mentions that the hardware dedicated processor for audio has its advantages and disadvantages, which we don't know of as of yet --well, stereo uncompressed, 5.1 uncompressed, and 7.1 uncompressed sound might be some of them, and those options are available for everyone to use in the settings menu of the console. So please calm down with those assumptions.
     
  17. Davros

    Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2004
    Messages:
    15,066
    Likes Received:
    2,395
    Its a direct quote It wasnt my interpretation
     
  18. Cyan

    Cyan orange
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2007
    Messages:
    8,572
    Likes Received:
    2,293
    Ok fair. It's just not about which system produces better audio -using the GPU for audio on the PS4 might yield some impressive results, or maybe it could become a smoke curtain if not used- but it could explain why the Xbox One can free up to 80% of a CPU core to use for games and not for the system. Audio can use a lot of processing power, and the PS4 is known for having a very efficient OS, which is very light on resources usage, so having a second CPU core for system resources primarily used for audio could explain why Sony aren't freeing up the second CPU core for now.

    Plus, they admit to taking advantage of the audio chip. And talk about VR systems -maybe Project Morpheus-

     
  19. Davros

    Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2004
    Messages:
    15,066
    Likes Received:
    2,395
    It does. The reason shape exists ultimately is not to create more realistic in game audio but to save disk space without using cpu resources.
    Shape has a lot of power but most of it is hardwired to 1 specific task, decompressing audio, Don't get me wrong this is a good thing especially now we are in the era of the 50gb game, (what hdd do consoles ship with now is it 500gb? As I have scientifically proved 500gb is not enough for games, so anything that helps in that area is a godsend) but from the viewpoint of someone hoping that power would be dedicated to correctly modelling the in game environment its hugely disappointing.
     
    #1119 Davros, Jan 22, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2015
    Cyan likes this.
  20. pMax

    Regular Newcomer

    Joined:
    May 14, 2013
    Messages:
    327
    Likes Received:
    22
    Location:
    out of the games
    As far as I understood, Sony has something similar to AMD TrueAudio in PS4. Why they'd need a processor reserved for audio?
     
Loading...

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Beyond3D has been around for over a decade and prides itself on being the best place on the web for in-depth, technically-driven discussion and analysis of 3D graphics hardware. If you love pixels and transistors, you've come to the right place!

    Beyond3D is proudly published by GPU Tools Ltd.
Loading...