Technical Comparison Sony PS4 and Microsoft Xbox

[Betanumerical]

They didn't mention the bandwidth figure vaguely though. Nothing Baker said that entire panel was particularly flowery PR speak. He was rather detailed in what he said. As I pointed out, the bandwidth figure came off the heels of him giving us 768ops/cycle in the same breath. Do we dismiss that figure too? I don't like just tossing information aside and dismissing it just because it doesn't fit in with prior assumptions. A better approach is to try and consider possible explanations that can accommodate all the info. It may be totally wrong...but it's logically more stable that way until more info cam accumulate.

I understand that making the lone assumption that Baker was lying or misleading ppl on purpose can help you fit all the info we have into a nice, tight picture. Only making one assumption like that normally isn't problematic. My issue is that the *entire* discussion that this thread is premised upon and the conclusions therein are extremely sensitive to this particular assumption more than any other area.

Hence, I think there is utility in rethinking these assumptions. Look, I make a living reconsidering other ppl's assumptions on topics much more complicated than this one and can tell you without the slightest hesitation that it's very often an extremely powerful approach.

>200GB/s memory sub system is vague as all hell, we have no idea what he counts as the memory sub system or how he is counting it. It has 0 substance unlike the 768ops/clk which we actually know what means.

Ok...but again, X1 has 6 times the space to accommodate a hot APU with much better ventilation, so ultimately the thermal considerations and limitations are going to be notably different. Has MS given any specific numbers about power draw yet? I recall them talking about the low-power angle a fair amount in the panel. Maybe that can help.

Sony has the same thing, way more room, and yet the same rumoured clocks, strange that, maybe it has less to do with the cooling solution and more to do with other things.

Btw have you been correct on a single thing yet? I havent really been keeping track, but from my count you havent.

 

[xJumPeRJumPzZ]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=58517553&highlight=#post58517553

That reveal confirmed that. No Live Demo and only Pre-Rendered Trailers...

 

[XpiderMX]

That reveal confirmed that. No Live Demo and only Pre-Rendered Trailers...

I really doubt Forza 5 was pre-rendered trailer.

 

[Rangers]

>200GB/s memory sub system is vague as all hell, we have no idea what he counts as the memory sub system or how he is counting it. It has 0 substance unlike the 768ops/clk which we actually know what means.

not really true again of course, there are fairly established ways of counting bw (hence the "WELL HES OBVIOUSLY A BIG LYING LIAR" stuff.

Sony has the same thing, way more room

Err, huh? How do you know that?

 

[Boglin]

I'm not *accusing*, I am stating a fact. My hypothesis doesn't assume *anything*. That doesn't mean my conjecture is right but I do feel at the very least that if the clocks were to be different than ppl assume then the comparisons in this thread become totally useless. As of now, those comparisons depend sensitively on assuming that nothing at all changed from the leaks and that Baker is trying to mislead ppl.

And there is a big difference between laying out an argument with corroborating evidence as I have and asserting it's "the most plausible explanation". We aren't privy to the correct explanation at this point in time.

I agree with you that people are leaning heavily on the leaks to support their own speculation, but those leaks have been extremely accurate and confirmed by several sources. I think you would agree with that too, though you are correct in stating that there has been no official confirmation of clock speeds(just outside sources saying specs haven't changed from the leaks).

The fact ppl are emotionally resistant to even discussing the topic speaks volumes as to how ppl want to cling to their own views on the leaks instead of being open minded enough to consider the possibility that perhaps the actual finished product from MS may be slightly different. That kind of attitude isn't conducive to much of anything.

I don't like that you are stating that people are emotionally resistant to discussing the topic of a slighty changed product by asserting that the slight change in question is a massive upclock to the GPU on a monster APU(maybe largest ever?). That upclock would have profound influence on the TDP,yields,production timeline, and cost. It's not emotional resistance, it's a justifiable dismissal based on logistics and what we already know.

 

[Betanumerical]

Err, huh? How do you know that?

I seriously doubt that Sony are putting the PS4 APU inside a tablet sized case, so I can just as easily use the same airflow justification as he can.

not really true again of course, there are fairly established ways of counting bw (hence the "WELL HES OBVIOUSLY A BIG LYING LIAR" stuff.

What is more vague.

Our bandwidth is 200GB/s or.
Our bandwidth is 102GB/s from eSRAM, 30GB/s from a coherent cache snooping and 68GB/s from DDR3.

 

[astrograd]

>200GB/s memory sub system is vague as all hell, we have no idea what he counts as the memory sub system or how he is counting it. It has 0 substance unlike the 768ops/clk which we actually know what means.

Nobody is forcing you consider my hypothesis bud. If you aren't interested in reconsidering fundamental assumptions then...well...don't.

Sony has the same thing, way more room, and yet the same rumoured clocks, strange that, maybe it has less to do with the cooling solution and more to do with other things.

Likely, but let's see their actual form factor first. They also announced their clocks already and from the leaks they should be confident that no last minute changes would be necessary. MS would have to really take some risks financially to up the clocks enough to gain a marketing advantage without killing their shipping expectations. So I wouldn't see Sony seeing a strategic need to move at all. But I'd agree on concept they'd almost certainly have similar flexibility.

Btw have you been correct on a single thing yet? I havent really been keeping track, but from my count you havent.

I'm openly and honestly speculating on gathered information that fits together. Have you been correct on anything yet without confirmed clocks? No? Ok then...This isn't some personal attack on you nor anyone else. I'm simply questioning the assumptions being made as those assumptions are particularly vital to the conclusions drawn in the discussions stemming from them.

If it upsets you so much as to be compelled to troll me, you are welcome to ignore my posts or even go find some other thread/forum to post on for all I care.

 

[DJ12]

I really doubt Forza 5 was pre-rendered trailer.

Rendered using in game assets I believe is the "official" line, which probably just means pre-rendered to not look much worse than the competition.

I think we all know it's not going to look like that when playing.

I would put a Xbpone overclock at fairly reasonable after the 200Gb/s thing, but this is bringing me down ever since it was posted

There is no overclock, you are just deluding yourself.

Maybe it's hot because of the eSRAM, GPU, CPU, SHAPE and the move engines all being on the same chip and the first time this was the case was when we started hearing about overheating problems.

Seriously, get real, you are only going to disappoint yourself and the several other xbox fanboys that take your word as some sort of proof.

It's a capable box, that will have good games. It's not as powerful as PS4 but who cares. It's funny to see people clutching at straws, the more looney the better, but ultimately it doesn't matter a single bit.

Both console will sell well, both will have good games, and neither side will care if Game A looks better on console B at the end of the day.

 

[Betanumerical]

If it upsets you so much as to be compelled to troll me, you are welcome to ignore my posts or even go find some other thread/forum to post on for all I care.

I've been correct on it being GCN when others where shouting there 4x VSP nonesense from the rooftops, the GPU is basically the only real thing ive speculated on so far.

Likely, but let's see their actual form factor first. They also announced their clocks already and from the leaks they should be confident that no last minute changes would be necessary. MS would have to really take some risks financially to up the clocks enough to gain a marketing advantage without killing their shipping expectations. So I wouldn't see Sony seeing a strategic need to move at all. But I'd agree on concept they'd almost certainly have similar flexibility.

Microsoft had a vision, it was met with the 800mhz GPU (as was outlined in there documents) why should they upclock there parts it makes no sense and just smacks of desperation, they have met there design goals. No one would do this.

 

[Rangers]

I don't like that you are stating that people are emotionally resistant to discussing the topic of a slighty changed product by asserting that the slight change in question is a massive upclock to the GPU on a monster APU(maybe largest ever?). That upclock would have profound influence on the TDP,yields,production timeline, and cost. It's not emotional resistance, it's a justifiable dismissal based on logistics and what we already know.

there are definitely people emotionally invested in durango not being any more powerful. just as vice versa. lets be real here.

this whole "I have no rooting interest I'm just a fair arbitar who loves logic" stuff is baloney. Were the same posters as skeptical when PS4=DDR4/stacked RAM/TSV whatever was being bandied about? Or PS4 overclocks? There was a rumor of 2 ghz PS4 CPU for quite some time that seemed to encounter little resistance. Or pretty much any rumor of PS4 improvement? Nope, I guarantee Betanumerical (as an example) made few if any posts about those subjects at all.


"Logic" would also say things for example, that given the forum posts that were revealed on neogaf, PS4 is likely to have 3GB RAM reserved. But some people are not going to be so invested in logic then. Or how long did we here it trumpeted that PS4 had an ARM core to handle all the OS so not one CPU core was reserved? Now, surprise surprise, it's likely 2 are.

This doesn't mean they cant be right, in a particular position. The odds seem against any overclock in this case. But not zero imo.

 

[XpiderMX]

Rendered using in game assets I believe is the "official" line, which probably just means pre-rendered to not look much worse than the competition.

I think we all know it's not going to look like that when playing.

Some screengrabs from the 1GB+ video:

http://i.imgur.com/4qkHXaL.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/nfarXCy.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/3Dv3gws.jpg

I think it is feasible with a 1.2TF GPU. It have some graphics details that looks like DirectX rendering, like the motion blur image, or some textures in the first image, or the public in last image.

 

[Rangers]

I seriously doubt that Sony are putting the PS4 APU inside a tablet sized case, so I can just as easily use the same airflow justification as he can.



What is more vague.

Our bandwidth is 200GB/s or.
Our bandwidth is 102GB/s from eSRAM, 30GB/s from a coherent cache snooping and 68GB/s from DDR3.

oh, for the first, i thought you were asserting ps4 was larger than xbo.

second, it's true bw is easier to fudge than some other specs, but it's also not completely free of conventions.

 

[Betanumerical]

Some screengrabs from the 1GB+ video:

http://i.imgur.com/4qkHXaL.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/nfarXCy.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/3Dv3gws.jpg

I think it is feasible with a 1.2TF GPU.

In replay/photoshoot mode sure, some of the shots are far to clean and exhibit no aliasing for me to believe someones actually playing.

 

[DJ12]

Surely the camera angles are a bigger indication it's not being played

 

[Betanumerical]

Surely the camera angles are a bigger indication it's not being played

New cinematic real time mode?

 

[XpiderMX]

In replay/photoshoot mode sure, some of the shots are far to clean and exhibit no aliasing for me to believe someones actually playing.

I mean realtime demo (replay/photomode), not gameplay demo.

 

[astrograd]

I agree with you that people are leaning heavily on the leaks to support their own speculation, but those leaks have been extremely accurate and confirmed by several sources.

That's fine, but who would be in a position to know if clocks got a last minute adjustment? No 3rd party devs were made aware of Sony's change to 8GB of RAM beforehand. Are these MS insiders or 3rd party dev sources? All insiders aren't created equal when it comes to strategic moves done last minute between dev kit shipments.

I don't like that you are stating that people are emotionally resistant to discussing the topic of a slighty changed product by asserting...

Stop. I asserted nothing. Don't put words in my mouth. I pooled together a variety of information from rumors to stuff insiders have been hearing to direct language from MS's engineers, etc. From that pool of disparate information I am piecing together a picture that fits, even if the picture that emerges doesn't seem like it's plausible. I account for that supposed implausibility by likewise questioning the assumptions that govern what ppl have *asserted* is or isn't plausible.

The ppl asserting things are on the other side of this issue atm. Asserting changing the clocks is out of the question...asserting knowledge about thermodynamic considerations nobody here is in a position to have access to...asserting that because a MS PR guy mislead ppl on bandwidth for a different platform almost a decade ago therefore Nick Baker was lying. There's no logical set of arguments nor supporting evidence to connect Major Nelson's claim in 2005 to Nick Baker's in 2013. None whatsoever. That type of stuff is an assertion.

That upclock would have profound influence on the TDP,yields,production timeline, and cost. It's not emotional resistance, it's a justifiable dismissal based on logistics and what we already know.

You don't "know" *anything* about these logistics. That's 100% speculation on your part. Please stop confusing knowledge with speculation, and speculation with assertions.

 

[Betanumerical]

That's fine, but who would be in a position to know if clocks got a last minute adjustment? No 3rd party devs were made aware of Sony's change to 8GB of RAM beforehand. Are these MS insiders or 3rd party dev sources? All insiders aren't created equal when it comes to strategic moves done last minute between dev kit shipments.



Stop. I asserted nothing. Don't put words in my mouth. I pooled together a variety of information from rumors to stuff insiders have been hearing to direct language from MS's engineers, etc. From that pool of disparate information I am piecing together a picture that fits, even if the picture that emerges doesn't seem like it's plausible. I account for that supposed implausibility by likewise questioning the assumptions that govern what ppl have *asserted* is or isn't plausible.

The ppl asserting things are on the other side of this issue atm. Asserting changing the clocks is out of the question...asserting knowledge about thermodynamic considerations nobody here is in a position to have access to...asserting that because a MS PR guy mislead ppl on bandwidth for a different platform almost a decade ago therefore Nick Baker was lying. There's no logical set of arguments nor supporting evidence to connect Major Nelson's claim in 2005 to Nick Baker's in 2013. None whatsoever. That type of stuff is an assertion.



You don't "know" *anything* about these logistics. That's 100% speculation on your part. Please stop confusing knowledge with speculation, and speculation with assertions.

We got a leak of the 8GB upgrade weeks before it happened, I think the chances of microsoft keeping upclock underwraps is near nill, will you concede at least that it is most likely that nothing has changed and the GPU and CPU clocks are at 800mhz and 1.6ghz ?.

Because at the moment you are asserting that Microsoft changed there performance target purely on Sony having the more powerful console which to me seems to complete rubbish, they have a vision they met and no amount of fanboy wishful thinking will change it.

 

[Boglin]

there are definitely people emotionally invested in durango not being any more powerful. just as vice versa. lets be real here.

this whole "I have no rooting interest I'm just a fair arbitar who loves logic" stuff is baloney. Were the same posters as skeptical when PS4=DDR4/stacked RAM/TSV whatever was being bandied about? Or PS4 overclocks? There was a rumor of 2 ghz PS4 CPU for quite some time that seemed to encounter little resistance. Or pretty much any rumor of PS4 improvement? Nope, I guarantee Betanumerical (as an example) made few if any posts about those subjects at all.


"Logic" would also say things for example, that given the forum posts that were revealed on neogaf, PS4 is likely to have 3GB RAM reserved. But some people are not going to be so invested in logic then. Or how long did we here it trumpeted that PS4 had an ARM core to handle all the OS so not one CPU core was reserved? Now, surprise surprise, it's likely 2 are.

This doesn't mean they cant be right, in a particular position. The odds seem against any overclock in this case. But not zero imo.

I'm not against durango being more powerful, if anything, my personal interests want quite the opposite. I am just far too skeptical of an increase in GPU clock for me to take seriously after giving it critical thought. Maybe your statement is more of a general vent of your perceived forum attitudes here at B3D, but i'll reply as if it were directed at me.

I always thought the PS4 would match the leaks, and didn't take the 2ghz cpu rumor seriously. The only thing I really paid much attention to about the PS4 after reveal is the change I liked to their controller. That said, I would be hard pressed to believe that PS4 requires the same hardware reserves in memory since it is not running two operating platforms in VM.

 

[Betanumerical]

Can anyone show me a console in the past that has a significant upclock just prior to launch?.