SSD's: there yet, and what is what?

Frank

Certified not a majority
Veteran
We got a request from a small company that creates and prints marketing materials for some new PC's. And they wanted them to be as fast as possible, without costing a premium. Adobe Illustrator/Photoshop and their likes are what they do all day, so you want a fast CPU (i7 for that kind of work), lots of RAM (6GB minimum, 12 recommended) and Windows 7 64-bit.

But what about the harddisk? Surely, a SSD is much better, and when they want fast, it can make a much bigger impact than all the other parts combined. But, there's SSD's and SSD's, not all created equal, and simply replacing the harddisk with an SSD of the same size can easily quadruple the price of the system, depending on the size of that hd.

Of course, there is no need for that. A smallish system disk will give you all the benefits, for a fraction of the costs. So, I started looking for the "best" SSD that fit the bill. And found out that there might be one, but I don't know which one that would be.

Some highlights:
- Intel has been king of the hill for close to a year, but their "affordable" drives are still way expensive, and suffer a lot from degradation over time. Firmware updates (TRIM) might work and not offer much of an improvement, or brick your drive.
- The drives with JMicron controllers are cheap, but really bad, as your system will suffer from pretty frequent freezes. The exception seems to be the Kingston implementation, but that only performs half way in between a fast harddisk and a good SSD. But they're cheap.
- Indilinx controllers are the current king of the hill, and as they use an embedded ARM core with quite a bit of memory, there doesn't seem to be much that makes them buckle. But they're even more expensive than the Intel ones, and easily double the price of the system even if you only use them for a smallish system disk.
- Samsung has some interesting controllers: the first ones were pretty decent until Intel came along, their current ones are in between the new JMicron Kingston's and Intel for price/performance. But the performance isn't very stable.

And the worst part is, that it's pretty hard to find out what controller is used in what drive, unless it's an Intel one. And even they like to mix some old controllers in a new batch.

Some highlights:
- OCZ is all over the place: they use them all, but fortunately seem to stick with the same type for the same model range.
- Kingston uses all of them as well, and they mix and match them in all their model ranges as well. For example: the SSDnow V-series 40 GB uses an Intel controller (but only half the flash banks), while the SSDnow V-series 64 GB uses an improved JMicron controller, the SSDnow V-series 128 GB uses a Samsung controller, and the SSDnow V+series 128 GB uses an Indilinx controller...


And performance for all of the above is all over the ballpark! How am I able to select the right drive for the right application? Because the next customer will have different priorities that I will have to translate to the right drive.

The only thing I know for sure is, that the old JMicron drives are bad, but without a batch of all the others to test for myself, that's about all I can say about it at the moment.

For example, I might simply recommend Intel and the premium that goes with that, but they're pretty bad for people that write a lot of files. And simply recommending Indilinx makes it too expensive for the majority of our customers.

So, I'm thinking of simply recommending the Kingston SSDnow V-series 64 GB for general purpose, and pick a current OCZ one with Indilinx controller if they want the best.
 
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run Illustrator/Photoshop from a ramdrive if thats possible
Agreed, but that's pretty hard to do. Most of the stuff accessed are lots of dll's everywhere, temp files, etc. The easiest way to do that is simply copy the whole system drive to ram drive on boot...
 
My concerns with SSDs currently are the state of the firmware (Intel and OCZ seem to be having "issues" recently), and the woeful inability of review sites to run meaningful benchmarks. Anand is the only place I've come across who've tried to benchmark semi-meaningful work patterns - most places just run Atto or similar and go "ooo... big numbers, shiny, shiny!!!".

The firmware is the real killer though. I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable putting an SSD in a build for someone who cares about the integrity of their data.
 
I just got an OCZ Agility 120Gb, is Indilinx like a Vertex but with cheaper Flash (my friend over in UK found that Vertex was cheaper there...)

I dunno how much I'm impressed or not, bunch of OS bits are much snappier & even in quite a few places I'd expected to not be affected.

Kingston M series are Intel G1 drives & cheaper than Intel brand.
I was going to get an Intel 80GB G2 but then nobody had it in stock (or the Kingston M) so I paid the extra for the Agility, with the positive side effect of having more space.
 
PC Performance is ime THE site to go to right now for good SSD information, they were the ones who originally broke the story with the fragmenting/degrading intel drives issue. Anand's site is good too I agree.

I have the Intel 64GB SLC SSD, it was hella crazy expensive when I bought it, but it's fuckin' fast. Not noticing any degrading, despite using it for normal general use for maybe eight months or so now and I haven't tried to upgrade its firmware either; the one time time I tried I simply couldn't find the damn files on Intel's stupid-ass confusing website!

I do keep swap file and internet cache off it though, but that's for space considerations as much as anything else. 64GB isn't an awful lot after all, even though it's roomier now when I'm running Win7 instead of Vista on it.

When 512GB SSDs become manageable price-wise, I will probably dump mechanical harddrives altogether. Right now I have bought too many Steam games to go solid state altogether (99.9GB installed at the moment and LOTS uninstalled, heh...)
 
Sandforce. Coming to rock your world early next year.
Hint: It's even faster than the Intels. And these are actually usable for stuff that appreciates fast sequential writes too, like Photoshop.
I would have had one with the controller this December, but f***in OCZ had to delay all other brands using it until they clear their JMicron/Indilinx stock.

For now it's the industry's best kept secret, the Solidata K8 (SF 1200) drives. ;)


Intel's G2 80GB SSDs now have TRIM, and although OCZ's Indilinx stock is expensive, the Agility is cheaper, the Corsair X and Team G1 series might be, and if you can get your hands on the Solidata K6s they might be cheap (at least for me they're 80% the price of the Agility for same capacity here in Singapore)
 
Unless access time is your only concern, or you have ridiculous amounts of money to spend on a RAM drive, there's no point in buying anything other than a standard magnetic HDD now. Large capacity 7200 RPM SATA drives have plenty of throughput.
 
I'm running a 60 gig vertex. Its fast as hell and with trim its a dream.


It really all depends on the size you need. 60 gig is of course ocz vertex , 80 gig is intel , 120 is ocz and 160 is intel. The prices increase dramaticly.


If i were you i'd just you 60 gigs as Boot drives with the programs on them and then store the data on regular hardrives. Its cheaper and you still get speed increases. Of course if they have thousands to spend on ssd drives for storage then go for it. But I think 160 gig intel drives are $600 and the ocz 120s are 400 ish in the states.
 
Sandforce. Coming to rock your world early next year.
Hint: It's even faster than the Intels. And these are actually usable for stuff that appreciates fast sequential writes too, like Photoshop.
I would have had one with the controller this December, but f***in OCZ had to delay all other brands using it until they clear their JMicron/Indilinx stock.

For now it's the industry's best kept secret, the Solidata K8 (SF 1200) drives. ;)


Intel's G2 80GB SSDs now have TRIM, and although OCZ's Indilinx stock is expensive, the Agility is cheaper, the Corsair X and Team G1 series might be, and if you can get your hands on the Solidata K6s they might be cheap (at least for me they're 80% the price of the Agility for same capacity here in Singapore)

Very interesting. I'm running a 60 gig right now as os and app drive. I was going to invest in a 120 gig. But if Sandforce is coming and might make it in qtr 1 of next year I will hold off.

You have any idea if they will be cheaper than the current drives on the market ?

I bought my vertex 60 gig back in june and got it for $150 on amazon after a $30 rebate. The same drive is at $240 after a $20 rebate now. The 30gigs are $120.

Prices are crazy. I'd love for the 60 gigs to be in the low $100s and the 120s in the mid $200 range. one can dream right !
 
Unless access time is your only concern, or you have ridiculous amounts of money to spend on a RAM drive, there's no point in buying anything other than a standard magnetic HDD now. Large capacity 7200 RPM SATA drives have plenty of throughput.
Not true.

Large capacity SATA drives are barely any faster than drives several years old, mechanical tech has run into a wall as far as performance is concerned, and that isn't surpassable even by going to ridiculous extremes such as 15k RPM spindle speeds.

My SSD is just way, way, way faster than anything I've used before. From the login screen to when I had a fully useable and responsive system using a mechanical drive raid0 array was about a minute. With my Intel SSD, it's about 2 seconds. I literally only have time to move my hand from the keyboard and to the mouse, and the desktop is up and running, and the systray is populated.

I can start up web browsers, games etc immediately and they'll load right up, whereas with mechanical drives you have to sit there and twiddle your thumbs while the HDD grinds and grinds away for what feels like an eternity. And any action you do only introduces more head thrashing, making the whole experience even more aggravating.

That doesn't happen with a good SSD.
 
Depending on the task, standard magnetic disc HDD's still compete favorably with SSDs.

That said, out of my experiences.

Avoid anything except the Indilinx or Intel drives if you want speed.

Indilinx generally have higher STR while Intel generally has better random read/write performance.

Both degrade a bit overtime but Trim will restore both to a nearly new state.

Samsung drives have gotten better over time but the inability to flash their drives means you are stuck with whatever firmware yours happens to come with. Some still ship with older firmwares that don't performn nearly as well as newer drives.

My recommendation is that unless they require loading multiple files simultaneously, that a traditional HDD is still the way to go.

If neither cost nor available storage space is an issue, then consider either the latest Indilinx drives or Intel G2 series (after fixing the issues they've had)...

Personally, none of the current SSDs are really ready for primetime, IMO. I'm on my 5th one now, and still wouldn't recommend it without some reservations to anyone...

Regards,
SB
 
Not true.

Large capacity SATA drives are barely any faster than drives several years old,.

Disagree, data density has gone up buy a big margin now my hdd tranfers about 90mb/sec 1tb sata2 back in the p4 days 320gb sata1 it was 60mb/sec you also have ncq which heps a bit
 
now my hdd tranfers about 90mb/sec 1tb sata2 back in the p4 days 320gb sata1 it was 60mb/sec
Lemme ask you this:

How often do you load 90MB in one go, and even if you do it ALL THE TIME, do you really miss that half-second you lose out on with the older drive? :LOL: I don't think so...

Truth is, most software do I/O with very small chunk sizes, 512 bytes to 32k at most typically. Harddrives are extraordinarily crap at small transfers, particulary if you got a couple I/O tasks going at once.

While your drive may be capable of transferring 90MB/s linearly, if you have two tasks that both want to stream data to the drive at maximum speed your performance will plummet to far below half, due to seeks. With a bunch of streams going, you'll be looking at 99.9% time spent seeking, 0.1% time spent on actual I/O...

you also have ncq which heps a bit
NCQ typically makes desktop drives slow down when enabled, due to command overhead. It's not an efficient protocol, and consumer-level harddrives do not handle it efficiently either due to cost considerations when designing the on-board microcontroller...
 
I can feel the difference between my current 1TB drive and my former 250GB one. it still makes a difference that whatever you read is read in 60% of the time compared to the older drives. even if you read lots of small crap it's an improvement.

for loading the desktop and browser I use a method that works with all drives : not loading crap I don't need :D
no desktop icons, few startup programs, and my icon tray is populated when all three icons are there.
it's maybe four seconds from login to desktop, versus two for your SSD, but the start menu, quicklaunch are usable before everything is loaded, so fine with me.

firefox starts quickly on a modern PC (thanks to ultra fast cheap CPUs)
oh and I've put a software ramdrive on my windows PC. takes the firefox cache + temp files. It has a good psychological impact.

that said I/O is quite the weak part of computers, if it's what you need I won't argue too much against a SSD. well I will argue against the SSD in my netbook, it's a micro SD card. we all know how much cheap flash sucks :).

fun question : with photoshop, illustrator etc. wouldn't you spend a lot of time reading and writing big multi-megabyte images and documents? :)
lots of long sequential I/O.

another question : why not just load up the motherboard with lots of ddr sticks and put the adobe cache on ramdisk.
 
Well this particular request was very specific. Depending on the quality of publishing this guy is doing. His photoshop images may be in the 10's of MBs or more.

And again it's unlikely that he'll be innundating the system with hundreds of concurrent IO requests for simple photoshop/illustrator duties.

An SSD will perform marginally better, but cost may not be entirely worth it. There's very few applications where an SSD is worth the cost unless you have cash to burn and/or must have the latest and greatest.

Where an SSD does shine is launching a large number of files concurrently. Once you start mixing in reads and writes, the gap starts to narrow. If you additionally have processing overhead while doing reads and writes and gap narrows even further.

SSD's are better generally. But at 10x+ the cost per MB, it's certainly not justified in the majority of cases, especially in a business where the bottom line is important. And most of the cases where an SSD would improve the bottom line enough to merit the cost...well desktop publishing isn't exactly one of them, IMO.

Regards,
SB
 
Not true.

Large capacity SATA drives are barely any faster than drives several years old, mechanical tech has run into a wall as far as performance is concerned, and that isn't surpassable even by going to ridiculous extremes such as 15k RPM spindle speeds.

My SSD is just way, way, way faster than anything I've used before. From the login screen to when I had a fully useable and responsive system using a mechanical drive raid0 array was about a minute. With my Intel SSD, it's about 2 seconds. I literally only have time to move my hand from the keyboard and to the mouse, and the desktop is up and running, and the systray is populated.

I can start up web browsers, games etc immediately and they'll load right up, whereas with mechanical drives you have to sit there and twiddle your thumbs while the HDD grinds and grinds away for what feels like an eternity. And any action you do only introduces more head thrashing, making the whole experience even more aggravating.

That doesn't happen with a good SSD.

Disprove my statement that throughput of high capacity magnetic disks is significantly outperformed by SSDs.

Throughput and latency are two disparate entities. Your argument seems to confuse the two.
 
I can feel the difference between my current 1TB drive and my former 250GB one. it still makes a difference that whatever you read is read in 60% of the time compared to the older drives. even if you read lots of small crap it's an improvement.

Yup it's far more noticeable than Grall would lead you to believe. I just built a newish computer with a 3/4 year old 7200 RPM (one of the fastest at the time) and to my surprise it's actually slower than a new 5900 RPM drive I was testing. And is absolutely dog slow compared to the top 7200 RPM drives available today.

Regards,
SB
 
Disprove my statement that throughput of high capacity magnetic disks is significantly outperformed by SSDs.
Wut?

Just take a look at a I/Os per second chart on any reputable hardware site that's reviewed SSDs.

There's no point in being deliberately obtuse over this issue; electronics > mechanics, it's always been this way. You may as well demand I prove to you that transistors switch faster than relays...

Your argument seems to confuse the two.
Errh, I've personally experienced practical, vast speedups when using my system with a SSD compared to traditional HDDs. You're not making sense.
 
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