Sony to cut semiconductor capital expenditure; 45nm Cell in FY08/09

Titanio

Legend
These seem to be the two most informative reports, with quotes from Yutaka Nakagawa of Sony.

http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.aspx?feed=OBR&Date=20070213&ID=6473662

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/sto...x?guid={8E9A7FEF-817C-4C49-943B-2CF5C6D72AE1}

Sony Corp (6758.TO) said Tuesday that it would cut capital expenditures at its semiconductor operations by a "large amount" compared with the last three years. The Japanese electronics giant's capital expenditures in its semiconductor business will be much less than the Y460 billion it spent over the last three fiscal years, said Executive Deputy President Yutaka Nakagawa, who heads the company's semiconductor and component device business. Nakagawa also said that production of 45nm Cell processors would probably begin at the end of fiscal year 2008 or the beginning of fiscal year 2009. The Cell processor is the main chip used in the company's PlayStation 3 game console. Nakagawa said Sony had yet to decide whether the 45nm chips will be manufactured by Sony itself or in cooperation with another company.

"We tentatively plan to start commercial production of 45-nanometre chips in late 2008 or early 2009. We are going to study carefully whether we should carry out all the capital investment and produce them in-house," Nakagawa said.

"When we first offered the PS2, there were no semiconductor companies that were able to make chips for the machine, so we did it ourselves. But now, there are companies that specialize in chip production," Nakagawa said.

Such chip makers include Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Co. Ltd. (TSMC) and United Microelectronics Corp. (UMC) , the world's largest and second-largest contract chip makers.

"They are aggressively investing in cutting-edge technology. Our basic understanding is that we probably won't need to do everything by ourselves for next-generation chips."
 
So they're basically following the model microsoft adopted 5 years ago :D

Not really, I'm sure Sony would keep control as far as their designs and IP go, for example. MS has even moved away from the model they used 5 years ago.

Outsourcing of production 5 years ago didn't make sense for Sony, taking his comments at face value. It may make sense from 45nm onward.

Sony is already outsourcing some production, though. They are customers of both IBM and Toshiba AFAIK, for Cell. But this seems to signal the possibility of a greater shift toward that in the future.
 
Not really, I'm sure Sony would keep control as far as their designs and IP go, for example. MS has even moved away from the model they used 5 years ago.

Outsourcing of production 5 years ago didn't make sense for Sony, taking his comments at face value. It may make sense from 45nm onward.

Sony is already outsourcing some production, though. They are customers of both IBM and Toshiba AFAIK, for Cell. But this seems to signal the possibility of a greater shift toward that in the future.

Oh yeah, but the own IP thing was a stupid technicality on ms part. To this day I cant figure out how a multi-billion dollar corporation overlooked that little tidbit

But you would have to say 360 came out before PS3.

Too be honest, imo there was no reason for Sony to spend billions on Cell either. If they could have it back, I bet they would. That's the next area I'd expect them to jettison in PS4...(unless they go multi-Cell...then I would be worried about what better designs the other guys might have in five years if I was Sony, or if devs even end up taking to Cell)

Of course I suppose, you can blame MS for going custom on the GPU, but it's seem to be such a costly endeavor as Cell, and besides the EDRAM whuch they did need to go custom to get, I think an X1800XT would have made us all just as happy (much less a X1900 shader class monster).

I used to hear a lot of, "Sony fabs it's own stuff so they really have a big edge on the bottom line on the backend, (even though they invest billions upfront)". Guess it's not so anymore...
 
I used to hear a lot of, "Sony fabs it's own stuff so they really have a big edge on the bottom line on the backend, (even though they invest billions upfront)". Guess it's not so anymore...

You used to hear it and it´s still the case to some degree with the PS3 but as mentioned above, they don´t make everything themselves. What the Sony dude says is "if we can buy the production facility cheaper than we can buildt it ourselve we will do that". Obvisouly they didn´t think this was the case before which was why Sony had "the edge on the bottom line on the backend".
 
I used to hear a lot of, "Sony fabs it's own stuff so they really have a big edge on the bottom line on the backend, (even though they invest billions upfront)". Guess it's not so anymore...

Same here. Sony fabs Playstation whole and thats why MS cannot compete with them on the bottem line in the long run....
 
Too be honest, imo there was no reason for Sony to spend billions on Cell either. If they could have it back, I bet they would. That's the next area I'd expect them to jettison in PS4...(unless they go multi-Cell...then I would be worried about what better designs the other guys might have in five years if I was Sony, or if devs even end up taking to Cell)

Of course I suppose, you can blame MS for going custom on the GPU, but it's seem to be such a costly endeavor as Cell, and besides the EDRAM whuch they did need to go custom to get, I think an X1800XT would have made us all just as happy (much less a X1900 shader class monster).

You seem to be confusing semiconductor design with semiconductor production. I don't think there's any question of Sony's commitment to things like the Cell architecture or next-generation designs, but who will manufacture them, whether it will be more or less in-house in the future. To take the MS GPU example, it was a custom design of Microsoft's (and ATi's), but MS do not manufacture it in-house.

Sony has spent billions on semiconductor manufacturing investment for Cell, so I could see them paring that back in the future in favour of outsourcing, if others can do it cheaper. But the design side was 'mere' hundreds of millions ($400m is the oft-quoted figure for Cell R&D).

The economics of outsourcing vs doing things in-house are never going to always be the same. If it makes economic sense to outsource more, then they should.
 
Oh yeah, but the own IP thing was a stupid technicality on ms part. To this day I cant figure out how a multi-billion dollar corporation overlooked that little tidbit

But you would have to say 360 came out before PS3.

Too be honest, imo there was no reason for Sony to spend billions on Cell either. If they could have it back, I bet they would. That's the next area I'd expect them to jettison in PS4...(unless they go multi-Cell...then I would be worried about what better designs the other guys might have in five years if I was Sony, or if devs even end up taking to Cell)

Of course I suppose, you can blame MS for going custom on the GPU, but it's seem to be such a costly endeavor as Cell, and besides the EDRAM whuch they did need to go custom to get, I think an X1800XT would have made us all just as happy (much less a X1900 shader class monster).

I used to hear a lot of, "Sony fabs it's own stuff so they really have a big edge on the bottom line on the backend, (even though they invest billions upfront)". Guess it's not so anymore...
Eh... why do you think 65nm and 45nm belong to the same class?
 
My opinion is that this means they will no longer be super-aggressive going for the next node. 45nm will be it for them for a while. Everyone seems fixated on Cell but for a company like Sony, they need chips for a variety of products - in-house production is always likely to be cheaper in the long run. Hiowever being first to get a cutting edge process running in-house is not such a wise strategy.

PS3 seems to have been a rather large anomaly for the company, costs have gotten out of hand and the product is almost “over-engineeredâ€￾ while at the same time it is a sacrificial lamb for the push of a HD optical standard. One anomaly should not break a great business model. For future iterations, in house production is almost always cheaper than 3rd party. Let’s see.
 
So they're basically following the model microsoft adopted 5 years ago :D
Sony have always worked this way (like most businesses). Production of PS2 components moved away from in-house when it became more economical. If someone can produce the chips cheaper than Sony producing them themselves, they'll go with them. The only point of note is the idea that TSMC can produce a chip cheaper for Sony, with their markup, than Sony can produce for themselves at cost. This gives an indiciator of the level of investment in manufacturing and requirement for volume production needed to get chip prices down.

45nm CBE in 2009 would be an ideal time for a console size reduction, no? If you can hold out 2 years, you'll get a much better deal on PS3!
 
"They are aggressively investing in cutting-edge technology. Our basic understanding is that we probably won't need to do everything by ourselves for next-generation chips."
This is inline with Stringers intentions of turning Sony into more of a design and software company.
 
This is inline with Stringers intentions of turning Sony into more of a design and software company.

That is a departure from the Kenny days when millions were spent to turn Sony into a semiconductor giant.
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I suppose they found it hard to take on the big boys and had to part ways with Ken's goals . They missed their 65nm schedule of Cell by a year(IIRC).
 
Yeah. I remember when Vince and a few others were steadfastly arguing that Sony would be this great leader in Semis and it just hasn't materialized. They're WAY behind schedule in Semis, Blu-Ray Diodes, the Cell-based GPU didnt' pan out, dev tools are lacking etc... The PS3 has been a pretty big fiasco so far. I do think they can turn it around, but they really dropped the ball and this is just one more example IMO.
 
Does every bit of news about Sony have to get spun into doom and gloom. Bla bla, the PS3 is a disaster... oh ya, what was the topic again?
 
Good point Todd. There's a lot of negativity around Sony these day.s As was the case when PS2 was new it might be worth adding again.

Maybe Sony's cutting spending vbecause PS3 designwork is already completed? What would they be spending fantastic amounts of money on if their biggest product for years to come is already for sale on store shelves?

pEace.
 
I used to hear a lot of, "Sony fabs it's own stuff so they really have a big edge on the bottom line on the backend, (even though they invest billions upfront)". Guess it's not so anymore...

Yeah I wonder where those same posters are now...probably lurking under different names...

Didn't SONY build fabs specifically for CELL production? So if they outsource CELL what are they going to do with those fabs?
 
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Does every bit of news about Sony have to get spun into doom and gloom. Bla bla, the PS3 is a disaster... oh ya, what was the topic again?

Reflection and context are not bad things. Sony happens to be the top dog which garners the spotlight which means every move they make will be strutinized. The fact that they have gambled on many things over the past couple years only draws more attention. Long story short, the reporters/journalists don't make the news, they just report it.

In this specific case it just looks like they may be toning down their investments until they can shore up their losses. Makes sense to me.
 
Yeah. I remember when Vince and a few others were steadfastly arguing that Sony would be this great leader in Semis and it just hasn't materialized. They're WAY behind schedule in Semis, Blu-Ray Diodes, the Cell-based GPU didnt' pan out, dev tools are lacking etc... The PS3 has been a pretty big fiasco so far. I do think they can turn it around, but they really dropped the ball and this is just one more example IMO.

They are behind schedule... but no more so than IBM themselves in a manner. So what does that ultimately mean? The entire industry has had a sort of speedbump on the 65nm node - Intel is simply in a different league when it comes to process advancement, but they always have been. Blu-ray diodes are indeed another place where Sony was 'behind schedule,' but today they are the volume leader in production and utilization. Just because you're behind on your own schedule, doesn't mean you're not ahead of the other guys schedule... and *that's* what's important.

Anyway, it would be interesting to see what a Kutaragi-run company would have resembled. I don't think an in-house fabrication capacity is a negative in any way save for cash-flow and capital expenditure reasons. The economics *do* favor it so long as the capacity demand is there; thus I wouldn't be surprised if Sony eventually were to build out a 45nm line anyway, but we'll see. It will certainly be hugely expensive, and if they feel that their cash can be utilized somewhere where the returns might be both quicker and larger, that's likely where they will leverage themselves.

In terms of R&D for Cell, however, that's already underway for both the 45nm and 32nm nodes... so I think for those interpreting this article as indicating a pull-back from the Cell architecture, it should be emphasized that the pullback is on fab capacity.

Didn't SONY build fabs specifically for CELL production? So if they outsource CELL what are they going to do with those fabs?

Sony built fabs to have fabs; the Cell project was the keystone that made the rollout economically viable. What will be built on the 65nm SOI lines? Cell, of course, as per plan. Doing so would be a good bit less expensive than outsourcing... I hope that remains clear. What will be built there when Cell has moved to 45nm (perhaps at an external fab), perhaps still Cell, perhaps something else. Sony has done a very good job of keeping its older fab lines in operation, and as things like EE+GS arise and get put on smaller nodes, the older lines are shifted towards the manufacture of things such as digital camera components.

This slide presentation from December 05 shows how Sony shifts fab capacity to other purposes as it ages, and what other markets they utilize their internal capacity for:

http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/info/Semiconductor/2005/pre_index.html
 
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hmmm.....would be nice if PS4 CPU was done on 22nm or 16nm rather than 32nm.

say ~7 TFLOPs of fp performance, that would be sweet. Though I know IBM is aiming for just ~1 TFLOP on a chip by 2010, so 7 TFLOPs by 2012 might be a bit far-fetched.
 
hmmm.....would be nice if PS4 CPU was done on 22nm or 16nm rather than 32nm.

say ~7 TFLOPs of fp performance, that would be sweet. Though I know IBM is aiming for just ~1 TFLOP on a chip by 2010, so 7 TFLOPs by 2012 might be a bit far-fetched.

If you're going to dream, dream big-> PS4 will be capable of 1 PFLOPS!!!!:LOL: :rolleyes:

BTW Intel already showed a 80-core 3GHz 1 TFLOPS chip on 65nm.
 
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