Sony PS5 NVME Expansion Options?

Mark Cerny:
add storage to whatever we put in the console
adding more storage
add to your SSD storage
Having watched it again, I agree. I can point to some ambiguities and counter-arguments but it's not worth fussing over. ;)

I would be surprised if Sony took this stance, this doesn't seem to be a good use of their time and effort - even for a nominal fee.
It's part of their standard licensing for Officially Licensed PS products.

It seems like Sony will just mention MM2s that work...

"once we've done that compatibility testing we should be able to start letting you know which drives will physically fit and which drive samples have benchmark appropriately high in our testing."
But I do expect PS branded, licensed MM2s from IHVs.
 
It's part of their standard licensing for Officially Licensed PS products.
Sure, but most peripherals - internal and external HDDs, non-official controllers, Bluetooth mics and headsets - have never required certification. Officially licensed products are about using the PlayStation and Sony licensing/brand.

It seems like Sony will just mention MM2s that work...

This seems reasonable.
 
Sure, but most peripherals - internal and external HDDs, non-official controllers, Bluetooth mics and headsets - have never required certification.
Don't know about controllers, but the rest of the stuff just works. HDD may indicate a minimum spec, but that's pretty straight forward.

The m.2 going to be somewhat different, with all the different types, form factors, speed, do they drop in performance too much etc.

I do expect Sony to just have a list of tested/supported products on the site.
The manufacturer will then just say "Sony verified" or something.
 
I thought you replaced whatever Sony put into the system. If the SSD is internal and then you have an expansion slot it would be a nice surprise. If you already have an 825GB drive, then you can add a smaller and, more important, cheaper SSD. Even an additional half gig ssd means a a 62% increase in storage size. I'm sure you would not be able to install 15 games at once, but I don't have even that many installed concurrently on my PC.

edit: Also, I do wonder whether you could use an HDD to only store PS5 games. And then swap the games into the SSD when you want to play, so you don't have to download them again. It would save time and internet bandwith. You would only need to wait for the game to be installed on the SSD.
 
I thought you replaced whatever Sony put into the system. If the SSD is internal and then you have an expansion slot it would be a nice surprise. If you already have an 825GB drive, then you can add a smaller and, more important, cheaper SSD. Even an additional half gig ssd means a a 62% increase in storage size. I'm sure you would not be able to install 15 games at once, but I don't have even that many installed concurrently on my PC.

edit: Also, I do wonder whether you could use an HDD to only store PS5 games. And then swap the games into the SSD when you want to play, so you don't have to download them again. It would save time and internet bandwith. You would only need to wait for the game to be installed on the SSD.

How cerny's presentation made it sound like is that the nvme ssd adds to the capacity and is not replacing internal ssd. It's same as you can add to the capacity using regular hdd which you can use for ps4 games/media and leave the internal ssd for ps5 games only.
 
How cerny's presentation made it sound like is that the nvme ssd adds to the capacity and is not replacing internal ssd.

Read the rest of the thread. It appears to be that way, but we have to wait for the teardown.
 
I thought you replaced whatever Sony put into the system. If the SSD is internal and then you have an expansion slot it would be a nice surprise.
Listen to Cerny describing it in the reveal. If you try and match what he's saying to a swap of the internal SDS, and then try to match it to the idea of an expansion, what he says in totality fits the former concept far more comfortably.
 
Don't know about controllers, but the rest of the stuff just works. HDD may indicate a minimum spec, but that's pretty straight forward.

Alas, this didn't happen, PS3 and PS4/Pro allowed the use of any 2.5" HDD no taller than 9.5mm - this is why we ended up with the terrible 20mb/sec bandwidth limit quoted by Insomniac devs for Spider-Man.

I do expect Sony to just have a list of tested/supported products on the site. The manufacturer will then just say "Sony verified" or something.

The speculation was about a formal certification programme, which I felt was unlikely. The indication is that Sony may publish a list of drives known to be fast enough around launch time but there is no way Sony will want to spend time checking an ever-increasing number of drives that appear throughout PS5's lifetime. As long as the PS5 does an initial check and verifies any inserted drive is fast enough, developers can work with those numbers. Sony just need to make it clear to PS5 owners that not all drives that physically fit may be compatible which was one of the first things Mark Cerny mentioned in The Road to PS5 talk. They just need to keep re-enforcing this message.
 
Listen to Cerny describing it in the reveal. If you try and match what he's saying to a swap of the internal SDS, and then try to match it to the idea of an expansion, what he says in totality fits the former concept far more comfortably.

I thought that as well initially, but I'm starting to have some doubts. If indeed Sony is buying the flash chips and building the SSD themselves, I think it makes zero sense to build a removable drive that then you need to insert into each console.

Plus you would need to build an entire production line to build the SSDs. They would save a lot of money but integrating the internal SSD directly into the MB. You remove the need for an additional manufacturing line and simplify the PS5 manufacturing process.

But if the SSDs are being built by Samsung or any other third party, then yes, it will probably be a swappable drive.

edit: Having listened to Cerny again. I still can't figure whether the SSD they'll ship is removable.
 
Sony should just come out and clarify.

I thought it was “adding” at first, but there is some room for misinterpretation. e.g., “adding” a new SSD could “disable“ the built-in one.

The issue here is the mixed 6-priority level and regular 2-priority level SSDs operations. It’s up to how they want to deal with the complexity.

Then again, there are certainly several good arguments for a secondary SSD that adds to existing storage.
 
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I'm have completely forgotten about the storage tech in PS5.

So assuming we do get 3rd party "certified" nvme's available next year. Will they match the built-in storage performance 100%?

There is nothing extra special about the built-in storage right? It's just a of matter of 3rd-party nvme's achieving a certain read-speed?
 
I'm have completely forgotten about the storage tech in PS5.

So assuming we do get 3rd party "certified" nvme's available next year. Will they match the built-in storage performance 100%?

There is nothing extra special about the built-in storage right? It's just a of matter of 3rd-party nvme's achieving a certain read-speed?

Sony’s SSD supports 6 priority level, regular ones only have 2.
To compensate for this difference, Cerny mentioned briefly that the regular SSDs will need to run at a faster clock >= 7GHz to “match” Sony’s SSD.

Because of QA needs, it may be simpler to keep Sony’s SSD around, and then add additional (regular) capacity on top. Some confirmation from Sony either way would be nice.

Not a big deal in the mean time, but the question will pop up again during their next presentation.
 
Sony’s SSD supports 6 priority level, regular ones only have 2.
To compensate for this difference, Cerny mentioned briefly that the regular SSDs will need to run at a faster clock >= 7GHz to “match” Sony’s SSD.

Because of QA needs, it may be simpler to keep Sony’s SSD around, and then add additional (regular) capacity on top. But some confirmation from Sony either way would be nice.

Not a big deal in the mean time, but the question will pop up again during their next presentation.

Right but regardless if you are not going to get the total performance advantage from 3rd party storage I'd almost rather just wait for a 1.65TB or 2TB PS5 model....
 
Right but regardless if you are not going to get the total performance advantage from 3rd party storage I'd almost rather just wait for a 1.65TB or 2TB PS5 model....

Minimally, you'll get some advantages with > 825GB capacity (high performance) 3rd party SSDs, plus any speed difference if they go beyond 7GHz for example.
 
Sony should just come out and clarify.

This is the extract from Mark Cerny on PS5's SSD and expansion.

Mark Cerny said:
"Expandability of our SSD is going to be quite important, flash is costly and you may very well want to add storage to whatever we put in the console. Now the kind of storage you need depends on how you're going to use it. If you have an extensive PlayStation 4 library and you'd like to take advantage of backwards compatibility to play those games on PlayStation 5, then a large external hard drive is ideal.

You can leave your games on the hard drive and play them directly from there, thus saving the pricier SSD storage for your PlayStation 5 titles. Or you can copy your active PlayStation 4 titles to the SSD if your purpose in adding more storage is to play PlayStation 5 titles though ideally you would add to your SSD storage. We will be supporting certain m2 SSDs these are internal drives that you can get on the open market and install in a bay in the PlayStation 5.

As for which ones we support, and when I'll get to that in a moment, they connect through the custom I/O unit just like our SSD does so they can take full advantage of the decompression I/O coprocessors and all the other features I was talking about. Here's the catch though, that commercial drive has to be at least as fast as ours games that rely on the speed of our SSD need to work flawlessly. When I gave the Wired interview last year I said that the PlayStation 5 SSD was faster than anything available on PC at the time. Commercial m2 drives used PCIE 3.0 and four lanes of that cap out at 3.5 gigabytes a second. In other words no PCIE 3.0 drive can hit the required spec m2 drives with PCIE 4.0.

Now out in the market we're getting in samples and seeing four or five gigabytes a second from them. By year's end I expect there will be drives that saturate PCIE 4.0 and support seven gigabytes a second. Having said that, we are comparing apples and oranges though because that commercial m2 drive will have its own architecture its own flash controller and so on. For example the nvme specification lays out a priority scheme for requests that the m2 drives can use and that scheme is pretty nice but it only has two true priority levels our drive supports six. We can hook up a drive with only two priority levels definitely but our custom IO unit has to arbitrate the extra priorities rather than the m2 drives flash controller and so the m2 drive needs a little extra speed to take care of issues arising from the different approach. That commercial drive also needs to physically fit inside of the bay we created in PlayStation 5.

For m2 drives, unlike internal hard drives, there's unfortunately no standard for the height of an m2 Drive and some m2 drives have giant heat sinks. In fact some of them even have their own fans right now. We're getting some drive samples and benchmarking them in various ways. When games hit in beta, as they get ready for the PlayStation 5 launch at year-end, we'll also be doing some compatibility testing to make sure that the architecture of particular m2 drives isn't too foreign for the games to handle. Once we've done that compatibility testing we should be able to start letting you know which drives will physically fit and which drive samples have benchmark appropriately high in our testing. It would be great if that happened by launch but it's likely to be a bit past it so please hold off on getting that m2 drive until you hear from us."

The long and short of it is, PS5's SSD is different in important ways that may necessitate the external m2 drive that goes in the PS5 expansion bay to be even faster than PS5's internal drive just to compensate for those differences. But until a lot more testing is done, they won't know how much.

My plans include augmenting PS5's internal SSD with a decent-sized m2 drive in the bay, probably 4Tb as minimum, but I'm also looking to get a conventional external 4Tb SSD in a 2.5" housing to hold all my PS4 games. I don't want to put them on a spinning HDD, not if PS5 will be able to massively speedup loading of PS4 games if they're sitting on a fast SSD - just not the super fast SSD intended for PS5 games.

edit: typos. Also, I can imagine Microsoft doing something very similar. They may have a less 'weird' IO controller tho so XSX owners may have better/cheaper choice for expanding their internal SSD storage.
 
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This is the extract from Mark Cerny on PS5's SSD and expansion.



The long and short of it is, PS5's SSD is different in important ways that may necessitate the external m2 drive that goes in the PS5 expansion bay to be even faster than PS5's internal drive just to compensate for those differences. But until a lot more testing is done, they won't know how much.

My plans include augmenting PS5's internal SSD with a decent-sized m2 drive in the bay, probably 4Tb as minimum, but I'm also looking to get a conventional external 4Tb SSD in a 2.5" housing to hold all my PS4 games. I don't want to put them on a spinning HDD, not if PS5 will be able to massively speedup loading of PS4 games if they're sitting on a fast SSD - just not the super fast SSD intended for PS5 games.

Will the compensation still give you the same performance as Sony's storage?... It's going to be interesting.

I guess minor difference wouldn't be bad but anything more than that I'd rather just wait for a higher capacity PS5 model instead to get the full benefits instead of adding storage myself.

Not to mention it's not like these 3rd party higher speed nvme's are going to be cheap.

If Sony sells a 1.65TB or 2TB PS5 for $599 it might actually be cheaper than doing it yourself...
 
Will the compensation still give you the same performance as Sony's storage?... It's going to be interesting.
That's what they're saying, they won't know how much faster m2 drives will need to be in raw performance over PS5's internal drive until they've done a lot more testing. It may even vary as games will be using the drive in different ways. Is Ratchet & Clank Sony's ultimate tool for testing if external m2 drives can cut the mustard? :runaway:

MS has already shown their expansion bay.
You're right, I had forgotten that Microsoft have "teamed up" with Seagate to sell 1Tb expansion drives.
 
Will the compensation still give you the same performance as Sony's storage?... It's going to be interesting.

Most of the magic is in the SSD controller (and the software stack) if I read Cerny's presentation correctly. That is partly why they can take 3rd party SSDs.

If they are comfortable to go this approach, it would imply they expect 3rd party solutions to exceed Sony's offerings in the long run (or same performance at a cheaper cost and price). Otherwise, there's no need to spend additional engineering time on 3rd party expansion.

But at launch time, things could be a bit uncertain due to typical release time constraints. There are probably higher priority asks elsewhere.

I guess minor difference wouldn't be bad but anything more than that I'd rather just wait for a higher capacity PS5 model instead to get the full benefits instead of adding storage myself.

Not to mention it's not like these 3rd party higher speed nvme's are going to be cheap.

If Sony sells a 1.65TB or 2TB PS5 for $599 it might actually be cheaper than doing it yourself...

If the specs go mainstream (every PC gamers also want faster SSD; Apple devices already use NVMe SSDs ?), the industry-wide sourcing may be cheaper because of scale. Cerny alluded to this in his presentation. Sony's hardware people should be able to make the necessary projections.

At some point, my PS3 inherited HDD from my other devices.
 
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