Sony investing in India market and development talent

patsu

Legend
Personally, I can't be more happy to see more (new) talent in the gaming industry. Having involved in a few software projects with teams in India, the result is mixed. However everybody is still very upbeat about the prospect.

What interests me more is the market. I know SMM has his history there. Anyone care to comment about the state of India's gaming market ?
* http://news.softpedia.com/news/India-Will-Be-Big-In-Game-Development-According-to-Sony-93803.shtml
* http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/54048
* http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1181615


Besides Korea, China and Taiwan's PC gaming activities (and ahem, piracy), the smaller Singapore has also initiated their own Virtual World and Augmented Reality efforts: http://business.asiaone.com/Business/SME+Central/eBiz+Hub/Story/A1Story20080918-88596.html
The government and industry are throwing big money into this area. It looks compatible with Playstation Home's direction (Someone told me parts of it are based on Collada, like Home). I wonder if Sony is interested to promote user generated content and their own effort there. Would be cool if Sony can find a sustainable way to extend Playstation Home beyond gaming.
 
Both PS3 and Xbox360 still cost around US$400-500 each which is on higher side. Only games available are from mainly EA , Sony and MS published. The price of games is still high as gaming is targeted to "rich" individuals. MS has been more active in promoting Xbox360 than Sony for PS3. Nintendo is non existent here.
EA titles mainly racing are getting more popularity. EA also has online shop but availability of titles still leaves much to be desired.
 
What rules in India is still ps2 , with most of the people modding it to play pirated discs on it. That is still the primary way of gaming here. A lot of individuals have bought PSPs now, but about half of them have got those cracked and run games from memory cards. When I bought R&C:TOD, one of my friends was teasing me that he doesn't have to buy Secret Agent Clank and can play it for free on his PSP.

Anyways, original PS2 games are a lot cheaper than before now, the platinum ones can be bought by average people now since Sony started duplicating discs in India.
As for gaming companies, my roomate works in one as an Engine Programmer. The state of the game companies is not so good here, especially the ones who want to make games in 3D. Companies making money out of gaming are the ones which make flash games or mobile games. Mobile games(Phones) being very cheap sell fine as they don't face that big a threat from piracy due to the low cost of the game, though one can find people selling even those in pirated cds.
and, yes, as crystalcube said, MS is advertising here a lot to capture the game audience. Sony, on the other hand, has no or negligible advertisement.But one thing in the favour of Sony is the large number of people who own PS2 and PSPs. Sony is a well known gaming brand here.
 
Personally, I can't be more happy to see more (new) talent in the gaming industry. Having involved in a few software projects with teams in India, the result is mixed. However everybody is still very upbeat about the prospect.

What interests me more is the market. I know SMM has his history there. Anyone care to comment about the state of India's gaming market ?
* http://news.softpedia.com/news/India-Will-Be-Big-In-Game-Development-According-to-Sony-93803.shtml
* http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/54048
* http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1181615


Besides Korea, China and Taiwan's PC gaming activities (and ahem, piracy), the smaller Singapore has also initiated their own Virtual World and Augmented Reality efforts: http://business.asiaone.com/Business/SME+Central/eBiz+Hub/Story/A1Story20080918-88596.html
The government and industry are throwing big money into this area. It looks compatible with Playstation Home's direction (Someone told me parts of it are based on Collada, like Home). I wonder if Sony is interested to promote user generated content and their own effort there. Would be cool if Sony can find a sustainable way to extend Playstation Home beyond gaming.


I hope you do realize that those big software corporations are more than happy to hire developers from those countries because they know they can work for a very low income compared to Us and European developers.
 
The trouble is piracy !

if a game is available for as low as $1 or $2 , why would anyone go out and buyit for $20, considering a game for ps2 as an example!!
Even if they price their game very low, still the pirated game will be a steal for its price.
People need to buy original games here, only then would the companies be able to sustain themselves.

The reason why there are more X360s than PS3s among people I know is because you can buy piratred X360 games due to its DVD drive, whereas, i have to buy original games priced at more than $60. Even if a developer from India starts making games for the 360, he won't be able to recover the costs as people will definitely play the game, but the money would go to pirates not the devs.
I think the devs have to lower the price of games here , for a start , for people to get interested in buying original games in the first place. Sony is doing that with the PS2. The platinum titles are cheap enough to be bought legally. Also, the PC games are pretty cheap here, compared to the console games which come at triple the price.
 
The trouble is piracy !

if a game is available for as low as $1 or $2 , why would anyone go out and buyit for $20, considering a game for ps2 as an example!!
Even if they price their game very low, still the pirated game will be a steal for its price.
People need to buy original games here, only then would the companies be able to sustain themselves.

The reason why there are more X360s than PS3s among people I know is because you can buy piratred X360 games due to its DVD drive, whereas, i have to buy original games priced at more than $60. Even if a developer from India starts making games for the 360, he won't be able to recover the costs as people will definitely play the game, but the money would go to pirates not the devs.
I think the devs have to lower the price of games here , for a start , for people to get interested in buying original games in the first place. Sony is doing that with the PS2. The platinum titles are cheap enough to be bought legally. Also, the PC games are pretty cheap here, compared to the console games which come at triple the price.

I have a question: are the games really priced at $60? Down here, in a different emerging market, games range from $100-$140. Your average consumer will buy pirated games (but then your average consumer is quite poor), but the upper 1% actually buy quite a few games at those prices.
 
I hope you do realize that those big software corporations are more than happy to hire developers from those countries because they know they can work for a very low income compared to Us and European developers.

But of course. Talent is probably one of the key bottlenecks in the industry. *If* the quality is good, it makes sense to offload work to more parties.
 
The mainstream Indian gaming crowd is too satisfied with what was made 3-4 years ago, and as a whole, it's a big let down. The Counter Strike playing population here is huge though. In spite of the fact that personal computer hardware prices are touching a new low every day, people still consider the fact that buying a separate graphics card is a bad idea and a waste of money. The same goes for software and video games. Another major reason is that most of the public game cafes think buying anything above GeForce series 6 cards would be a horrible investment. An average Indian gamer would buy a stock PC for 550 $ and that's exactly where he plays all his games.

Consoles are kind of a different story. One can easily arrange for a modded machine for a mere 55-65% than the original MRP. To some extent, even the distributors are to be blamed, because comparatively to the prices of the consoles in the American market, local pricing is very, very high. The same goes for console accessories and the games. Also, the demand for accessories isn't something major either. 80% of the gamers in India have no idea that games like Fallout Tactics or MGS 4 or Killzone 2 exist. For them, NFS Underground & other NFS games, Cricket 2007, CS: Source and Warcraft 3: The Frozen Throne is the crème ‘la crème of the gaming realm. Not that TFT is anything ugly, but with franchises like Command and Conquer, Supreme Commander & Dawn of War around, there's always something more to look at.

Broadband penetration is India isn't mentionable enough. High pricing on various broadband plans, data transfer limits and an average speed of 32 KBPS is not sufficient enough for multiplayer gaming. What makes it even worse is the shitty service every single ISP in India has to offer. And if you walk into a retail store, the video games collection doesn’t really offer much, but the very mainstream games, primarily from the sports and racing genre. The rest are very rare or there is a complete absence of those titles. The fact that most of the consoles are modded and PC games use key gens, online gameplay is marginally low.

The companies are at fault too. There marketing strategies are successful only on paper. There hasn’t been enough publicity for the games or the consoles. And the kind of advertisements and launch events that happened hasn’t been able to amass much success. One major factor why that happened is because they never took the risk of trying and giving the Industry a chance to stand on its own. The so called ‘celebrities’ and actors from movies and page 3 personalities are used when it comes to any kind of a publicity stunt or an ad, which IMO is very lame. They may be popular amongst the masses because the celeb kiss-ass culture in India is roaring, but it’s certainly not going to work for videogames. Instead of mentioning the power of the machine and the qualities of the game that is supposed to be sold, the celebrities are glamorized at these launch events and they just expect people to buy stuff based on that.

As mentioned in one of the posts above, Microsoft has indeed had more promotion activity compared to Sony, and Nintendo is totally dead here. But what Microsoft has done is nothing beyond kissing some celebrity ass and hoping people are going to buy their products based on just that. And those who even buy consoles without a mod chip from the retailers eventually get their machines modded, so as to enable gameplay from pirated discs. Online gameplay on XBL or PSN or any other service is amongst the least of their priorities.

The coverage of video games by the national popular media is very low. There isn’t a proper magazine dedicated to videogames, and for the newspaper columns and news channels, if the Industry is lucky, it’s kind of a once-in-a-year coverage. There aren’t popular gaming events as such, or competitions or expos at all. The mainstream Indian mindset still considers gaming to be a child’s play.

Those titles that are actually available with the retailers are priced at around 50$-60$, and the classic ones are priced at 22$-30$ for consoles and 10$-15$ for the PC. The packing of most of these guys is downright horrible, and the boxes are stuffed with catalogues for other products that the company has to offer. If there ever is a play manual, it’s a 10-20 page thin, photocopied-like toilet-paper thing. Also, the quality of the discs is very inferior.

I order most of my games either online, or I get my friends in the US and Japan to get those titles available for me, ‘cause everything additional in that box is really important to me.

As far as game development is concerned, the colleges here have absolutely no quality job-oriented or skill-polishing majors. As far as game developers and artists are concerned, there are some amazing talented guys who work at companies like Bungie (may be one of you knows Rajeev N?), and Epic, and LucasArts. Many others who work at Indian studios, like Dhruva Interactive, have assisted major companies like EA and some best selling titles like PGR4 in their projects. But something completely native and a commercially successful title is yet to see the sunlight. As patsu mentioned, outsourcing is existent, may be just minimal, because India offers competitive workforce at lower expenditure. And this workforce can really be polished to a great extent with a little effort.

Last and the very important factor is piracy, which hogs the industry here like an incurable disease. And because of weak rules and regulations for curbing piracy, and all the corruption and lack of information amongst law enforcement agencies and the buyers, the problem has only got worse in recent times. South Asia’s biggest piracy market is located at Palika Bazaar, Connaught Place, in the heart of the capital city of India, New Delhi. And this is the major distribution center of pirated games in India. Some pirated do use bugged internet connections and torrents to download and create digital copies, but basically, this particular Bazaar is to be blamed. The nexus of the pirates and the involvement of regional and custom authorities at the international borders armed at Nepal, China, and Bangladesh is just way too strong to be destroyed any time soon. These borders are the ones where most of the hard copies of the pirated games come in. You can get the rarest and brand new PC titles here for as low as 3$. X360 titles are available at around 3$-4$, and PS3 games can be bought at around 5$. ISOs for PSP games are available on DVDs that you can transfer to the memory card. Each DVD contains around 5 titles, and one DVD is priced around 4$-5$. These are the prices at which anyone can buy them. If you happen to be a pirate retailer in the rest of the cities in the country, you will probably order in bulk (numbers touch 900-1000 copies per product in the first season in Tier I cities and towns), and ordering in bulk gives you some catchy bargains. You can get a modded X360 for 250$, a modded PS3 for 460$, a modded PSP for 169$ and a modded PS2 for 110$. All the prices I’ve mentioned are best known to me, and they are all in approximation. Any kind of a fault or error isn’t my responsibility.

Compared to the prices at branded retail outlets here in India, the price the grey market offers has a lot of takers. And this doesn’t end ‘cause no body cares. Those who do, like me, get their games from abroad, and this is the kind of shit that one individual just can’t fix. And that breaks my heart, and totally sucks. The kind of effort and cash that goes into creating and shipping a finished product in the video game industry has null value to the pirates and to most of the Indian gamers. The hand of god needed right now to change this attitude is when developers and the distributors truly commit themselves to ending this suck fest once and for all. India actually has a lot of potential, and Sony, by making the PS3 SDK available to a few developers is kind of a start, but there is a long way to go. If somehow, all this is curbed, profits of the creators are bound to increase.
 
I have a question: are the games really priced at $60? Down here, in a different emerging market, games range from $100-$140. Your average consumer will buy pirated games (but then your average consumer is quite poor), but the upper 1% actually buy quite a few games at those prices.
The PS3 games here are priced at around $60 -70, mostly $60. X360 games are priced at around $45, cheaper than US, coz the DVDs are duplicated in India itself.But then hardly anyone buys original X360 games as they can get it for $12 from pirates, I have heard.

But, yes, there are people buying original games, even if very few. All PS3 gamers have to buy originals as Blu-ray has not been pirated, so, I guess, people who are buying PS3s here are people who are okay with buying originals. PC games' price has fallen enough, encouraging more people to buy stuff legally for the PC, but then :rolleyes:

The mainstream Indian gaming crowd is too satisfied with what was made 3-4 years ago, and as a whole, it's a big let down. The Counter Strike playing population here is huge though. In spite of the fact that personal computer hardware prices are touching a new low every day, people still consider the fact that buying a separate graphics card is a bad idea and a waste of money. The same goes for software and video games. Another major reason is that most of the public game cafes think buying anything above GeForce series 6 cards would be a horrible investment. An average Indian gamer would buy a stock PC for 550 $ and that's exactly where he plays all his games.

Consoles are kind of a different story. One can easily arrange for a modded machine for a mere 55-65% than the original MRP. To some extent, even the distributors are to be blamed, because comparatively to the prices of the consoles in the American market, local pricing is very, very high. The same goes for console accessories and the games. Also, the demand for accessories isn't something major either. 80% of the gamers in India have no idea that games like Fallout Tactics or MGS 4 or Killzone 2 exist. For them, NFS Underground & other NFS games, Cricket 2007, CS: Source and Warcraft 3: The Frozen Throne is the crème ‘la crème of the gaming realm. Not that TFT is anything ugly, but with franchises like Command and Conquer, Supreme Commander & Dawn of War around, there's always something more to look at.

Broadband penetration is India isn't mentionable enough. High pricing on various broadband plans, data transfer limits and an average speed of 32 KBPS is not sufficient enough for multiplayer gaming. What makes it even worse is the shitty service every single ISP in India has to offer. And if you walk into a retail store, the video games collection doesn’t really offer much, but the very mainstream games, primarily from the sports and racing genre. The rest are very rare or there is a complete absence of those titles. The fact that most of the consoles are modded and PC games use key gens, online gameplay is marginally low.

The companies are at fault too. There marketing strategies are successful only on paper. There hasn’t been enough publicity for the games or the consoles. And the kind of advertisements and launch events that happened hasn’t been able to amass much success. One major factor why that happened is because they never took the risk of trying and giving the Industry a chance to stand on its own. The so called ‘celebrities’ and actors from movies and page 3 personalities are used when it comes to any kind of a publicity stunt or an ad, which IMO is very lame. They may be popular amongst the masses because the celeb kiss-ass culture in India is roaring, but it’s certainly not going to work for videogames. Instead of mentioning the power of the machine and the qualities of the game that is supposed to be sold, the celebrities are glamorized at these launch events and they just expect people to buy stuff based on that.

As mentioned in one of the posts above, Microsoft has indeed had more promotion activity compared to Sony, and Nintendo is totally dead here. But what Microsoft has done is nothing beyond kissing some celebrity ass and hoping people are going to buy their products based on just that. And those who even buy consoles without a mod chip from the retailers eventually get their machines modded, so as to enable gameplay from pirated discs. Online gameplay on XBL or PSN or any other service is amongst the least of their priorities.

The coverage of video games by the national popular media is very low. There isn’t a proper magazine dedicated to videogames, and for the newspaper columns and news channels, if the Industry is lucky, it’s kind of a once-in-a-year coverage. There aren’t popular gaming events as such, or competitions or expos at all. The mainstream Indian mindset still considers gaming to be a child’s play.

Those titles that are actually available with the retailers are priced at around 50$-60$, and the classic ones are priced at 22$-30$ for consoles and 10$-15$ for the PC. The packing of most of these guys is downright horrible, and the boxes are stuffed with catalogues for other products that the company has to offer. If there ever is a play manual, it’s a 10-20 page thin, photocopied-like toilet-paper thing. Also, the quality of the discs is very inferior.

I order most of my games either online, or I get my friends in the US and Japan to get those titles available for me, ‘cause everything additional in that box is really important to me.

As far as game development is concerned, the colleges here have absolutely no quality job-oriented or skill-polishing majors. As far as game developers and artists are concerned, there are some amazing talented guys who work at companies like Bungie (may be one of you knows Rajeev N?), and Epic, and LucasArts. Many others who work at Indian studios, like Dhruva Interactive, have assisted major companies like EA and some best selling titles like PGR4 in their projects. But something completely native and a commercially successful title is yet to see the sunlight. As patsu mentioned, outsourcing is existent, may be just minimal, because India offers competitive workforce at lower expenditure. And this workforce can really be polished to a great extent with a little effort.

Last and the very important factor is piracy, which hogs the industry here like an incurable disease. And because of weak rules and regulations for curbing piracy, and all the corruption and lack of information amongst law enforcement agencies and the buyers, the problem has only got worse in recent times. South Asia’s biggest piracy market is located at Palika Bazaar, Connaught Place, in the heart of the capital city of India, New Delhi. And this is the major distribution center of pirated games in India. Some pirated do use bugged internet connections and torrents to download and create digital copies, but basically, this particular Bazaar is to be blamed. The nexus of the pirates and the involvement of regional and custom authorities at the international borders armed at Nepal, China, and Bangladesh is just way too strong to be destroyed any time soon. These borders are the ones where most of the hard copies of the pirated games come in. You can get the rarest and brand new PC titles here for as low as 3$. X360 titles are available at around 3$-4$, and PS3 games can be bought at around 5$. ISOs for PSP games are available on DVDs that you can transfer to the memory card. Each DVD contains around 5 titles, and one DVD is priced around 4$-5$. These are the prices at which anyone can buy them. If you happen to be a pirate retailer in the rest of the cities in the country, you will probably order in bulk (numbers touch 900-1000 copies per product in the first season in Tier I cities and towns), and ordering in bulk gives you some catchy bargains. You can get a modded X360 for 250$, a modded PS3 for 460$, a modded PSP for 169$ and a modded PS2 for 110$. All the prices I’ve mentioned are best known to me, and they are all in approximation. Any kind of a fault or error isn’t my responsibility.

Compared to the prices at branded retail outlets here in India, the price the grey market offers has a lot of takers. And this doesn’t end ‘cause no body cares. Those who do, like me, get their games from abroad, and this is the kind of shit that one individual just can’t fix. And that breaks my heart, and totally sucks. The kind of effort and cash that goes into creating and shipping a finished product in the video game industry has null value to the pirates and to most of the Indian gamers. The hand of god needed right now to change this attitude is when developers and the distributors truly commit themselves to ending this suck fest once and for all. India actually has a lot of potential, and Sony, by making the PS3 SDK available to a few developers is kind of a start, but there is a long way to go. If somehow, all this is curbed, profits of the creators are bound to increase.


Well, the situation you are describng are true for small towns, but, here in Mumbai, I can get any new game within a week of release for my PS3. Also, I have a stable 1mbps connection, no probs for the last six months.

I don't agree about the quality of the discs and manuals. All my games are of top quality with no problems from the discs or Manuals. Do note that I am talking about the PS3 games ,which being on blu-ray, are still immune from duplicacy.

a modded PS3 for 460$,
and PS3 games can be bought at around 5$

What? Where? Please educate me, but when has the PS3 been cracked? PS3 modding? When did that happen?


I do agree on your point that education related to making games is nill here, in fact, no such curriculum exists. Whatever the current developers have learned is from their own efforts and help from other programmers. A program for a Game Designer is unheard of, but that does not stop people from trying and making games. My roommate is an Engine programmer, other one being a 3D artist in the same company.Of course, if you want game desigining specific education, its abroad, not here.


As far as talent is concerned, India has talent, just that it has to go out of India to shine, as of now. Hope that changes soon.
 
Regards education, the UK has pretty much no game developer training either! The Comp Sci education given is all in applications and the 'professional sector' or whatever they call it, and on the whole you can't enrole on a course and come out knowing how to program a console. Most people learn from developing on PC for their own amusement and working their way through the industry, I think.
 
The mainstream Indian gaming crowd is too satisfied with what was made 3-4 years ago
That is not true. Most companies treat developing countries as dumping ground (not just the game publishing companies). So what stops selling in developed countries is dumped there. You cant blame the gaming crowd for this.
 
RenegadeRocks said:
Well, the situation you are describng are true for small towns, but, here in Mumbai, I can get any new game within a week of release for my PS3...

I did say I am considering the entire country in general, not specifically a particular area in Mumbai or the PS3. I myself am from South Bombay, so personally, finding games and a brilliant internet connection isn't much of a problem. But India is more than just one big city. Proper internet is still a far cry in various Tier II and Tier III cities in the country.

Regarding the PS3 modding thing, my apologies on that one. I actually wanted to say 'illegally imported'. In the grey market (again, I cannot confirm what price its up for sale for), you can buy the PS3 for a much much lower price than what you'll have to pay at a retail outlet. Though you don't get any kind of a sales bill, all the warranty stands void, and I doubt any kind of online service like the PSN is available to such machines either.

crystalcube said:
That is not true. Most companies treat developing countries as dumping ground..

Very true, but then again, it also has to do with demand and supply. If people aren't going to ask for something, they are not going to get it. And they aren't going to ask for something until they're all well informed and updated.
 
Though you don't get any kind of a sales bill, all the warranty stands void, and I doubt any kind of online service like the PSN is available to such machines either.
If they're foreign imports, PSn should work just fine. PS3 is a region free machine on the whole, with your PSN account determining what services you get.
 
If they're foreign imports, PSn should work just fine. PS3 is a region free machine on the whole, with your PSN account determining what services you get.

So there isn't a way to check and black list illegally sold units? Then again, as long as BRDs remain untouched and away from piracy, may be blacklisting is not important as of now.
 
it also has to do with demand and supply. If people aren't going to ask for something, they are not going to get it. And they aren't going to ask for something until they're all well informed and updated.
Again I would say you are wrong. People who buy off the shelf have no choice. India is not a consumer's market yet that means people buy whats available even if they demand, no one listens. In fact only way to get latest games ( for that matter other media including Movies and music) in India right now is ..piracy. It may also be the case for other developing regions.
There are some exception though e.g. EA is launching their games in India at reasonable prices and they launched Crysis for PC close to US$25.
Also the reason game like Need for speed is gaining popularity is because EA is building their presence in India.

As for PSN, there is no PSN India yet. So if you wanna buy Wipeout HD in India (which is actually priced nicely) you cant unless you use address of your family and friend living in US. Dont know if your credit card will even work in that manner.
 
Again I would say you are wrong. People who buy off the shelf have no choice. India is not a consumer's market yet that means people buy whats available even if they demand, no one listens. In fact only way to get latest games ( for that matter other media including Movies and music) in India right now is ..piracy. It may also be the case for other developing regions.
There are some exception though e.g. EA is launching their games in India at reasonable prices and they launched Crysis for PC close to US$25.
Also the reason game like Need for speed is gaining popularity is because EA is building their presence in India.

There's no import market? Down here we have imports, and can count on paying 2x-3x the dollar cost of the item, depending on what the dollar is trading for. (MS releases locally-pressed games, and they're about 75% the price of imports. Sony's going to build a BD-pressing plant down here too, it seems, mostly for BD movies, but there's hope it'll drop the price of PS games too.)

As for PSN, there is no PSN India yet. So if you wanna buy Wipeout HD in India (which is actually priced nicely) you cant unless you use address of your family and friend living in US. Dont know if your credit card will even work in that manner.

PSN restricts credit cards, and apparently even entropay is restricted now. There are ways around it still, though, with certain credit cards.
 
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