Sony Creates 'x.v.Color' to Highlight xvYCC Compliance

Discussion in 'Beyond3D News' started by Carl B, Jan 6, 2007.

  1. Carl B

    Carl B Friends call me xbd
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    Sony <a href="http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/200701/07-001E/index.html" target=_b3dout>announced yesterday</a> the creation of 'x.v.Color,' a branding methodology with associated logo whose purpose is to provide consumers with a simplified means of identifying xvYCC-compliant displays in anticipation of retail availability later this year.

    Featured by Sony in a technology demonstration at last year's Consumer Electronics Show, xvYCC is a colorspace standard that allows for the display of roughly 1.8 times the color range allowed by present industry standards (ie RGB). In conjunction with the expanded bit-depths permitted through 'Deep Color,' compliant devices outputting via HDMI 1.3 to compatible 'x.v.Color' displays will be capable of putting on screen nearly every color found in nature that is visible to the human eye.

    Originally proposed by Mitsubishi and Sony through the Japan Electronics and Information Technology Industries Association as a new standard for the consumer electronics industry, xvYCC was approved as an official international standard by the International Electrotechnical Commission early last year. Mitsubishi and Sony are presently also the manufacturers considered most likely to release xvYCC-compliant displays in 2007; Mitsubishi through retail sets utilizing their laser-DLP technology, and Sony through LCD.

    Presently, Sony's Playstation 3 is the only consumer device on the market supporting HDMI 1.3 and capable of outputting a 'Deep Color' image. Presumably, the Playstation 3 could also gain xvYCC colorspace output via a future firmware update, similar to the recent YCrBr output enabled on the console by SCEI.
     
  2. Carl B

    Carl B Friends call me xbd
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    It should be noted that there are presently xvYCC-compliant Bravias for sale in Japan at this time, but hey that's Japan...
     
  3. Rufus

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    Does anyone have a good pointer explaining xvYCC? A bit of quick googling just says it's "Extended-gamut YCC". They're obviously throwing more bits in for a larger color space, but where are they throwing the bits?
     
  4. Basic

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    You could think of it as making the RGB values signed. It's easy to get the impression that there would only be black there, but there's actually deeper colors on that side. So if you have some positive red, you could add some negative green and blue to make it even deeper red.

    But the exact format? Can't help you. (Most likely not signed RGB though. :smile:)
     
  5. wishiknew

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    Thanks XBD for the japanese Bravia info. Contrast ratio went up a bit. Can't tell if it has hdmi 1.3 but I assume so due to xvYCC. Can't Hope to see the model appear in NA soon.
     
  6. Carl B

    Carl B Friends call me xbd
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    Yeah that Japanese Bravia does have HDMI 1.3... the x2500 series is what you're looking for.

    @Rufus210: The deep color and the xvYCC are actually two different capabilities that can complement each other. For example, Deep Dolor still has utility within RGB and YCrBr; it greatly expands the number of 'shades' that can be displayed from within those colorspaces. Should help reduce banding in the real world, etc...

    xvYCC on the other hand, expands the the range of displayable colors on the CIE 1931 chromacity diagram to encompass over 90% of human-perceptible color. NTSC/RGB/YCrBr on the other hand encompass only about 50% of 'color.'

    'Deep Color' would be used in conjunction with xvYCC - similarly tp how it is used with RGB etc... - to greatly expand the number of 'shades' available within that now also greatly expanded colorspace.

    Basically, given an 8-bit per component output source:

    * xvYCC would grant you a greatly expanded range of colors, but the shade range would be spread even more thinly than it is within the present RGB (ie ~17 million 'colors' within a greatly expanded color range)

    Given a 12-bit per component 'Deep Color' source:

    * You now have 68.7 billion colors/shades to work with within whatever colorspace. Within RGB, you basically have seemless color, and even within xvYCC - where Deep Color works great in conjunction - you approach nearly the entire range of visible color in what is still a seemless fashion of shading.
     
    #6 Carl B, Jan 7, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 7, 2007
  7. Colourless

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    I know this is a good thing and all, but I kind of fail to see the point. All source media is going to be produced so it will fit the standard colour gamats, meaning these extended gamats will have limited use. Maybe you'll be able to get a demo disc that shows how good it is by displaying certain really hard colours but for general use its not going to have much use, other than to up the $
     
  8. Basic

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    True.
    And because of that, people will instead turn the color saturation knob to max. And this will make all the extended color range available in common RGB mode. It wont be the right colors, but at least you'll get to see all the pretty colors.

    I'm still amazed how many people there are that think that a TV's color quality is proportional to how bright red you can make peoples faces.:shock:
     
  9. rendezvous

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    I'm having difficulties trying to imagine an output device outputing negative colours.
     
  10. Basic

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    It's not really negative colors. It's just that the common RGB coding is such that you need negative values to reach them. We have three kinds of cones in our eyes, they react (mostly) to red, green, and blue. It's easy to get the impression that the Red, Green, and Blue values in the framebuffer is mapped straight to stimuli of the respective cone. But they aren't!

    First, the RGB values are defined to match the colors you get from three phosphors in a CRT. That's not pure monochromatic colors.When you say "all red" to the monitor, you'll get a small amount of other colors too. That's not (only) because of electrons leaking to the nearby green and blue dots, it's because the red phosphor doesn't give a pure red color. Same things goes for the other two components.

    Second, the cones in your eyes detect overlapping color spectra. Even with a monochromatic green light, you'd still detect it to some extent with the red and blue cones too.

    Those two effects add up, so if the framebuffer has RGB = (1.0, 0.0, 0.0), your eyes will get some stimulation for other colors than red. The "negative G and B" is just to compensate for the wanted red that "leaks" into the green and blue channel of you eyes.

    Practcally, you could of course not have a negative light. It's just a way to say where the "new" colors are relative a RGB color cube. Instead, you'd need more pure colors (closer to monochromatic). Ie, fixing the first factor described above. And that's what the new monitors do.


    As a side note, the second factor above is still there. And that can't be corrected by just making the red, green, and blue light more pure. The only way to compensate for that is to use more than three base colors in the monitor. It can still be encoded as three values, but the physical pixels on the monitor would need more than three color components.



    For an illustration, look here. Scroll down to the "Current RGB color space" image in the middle of the page. The corners of the triangle represent the colors of the three phophors. The inside of the triangle is the colors that can be represented with this standard RGB space. The curved edge represent pure monochromatic light (the wavelength is ploted in the image). If you want to get outside of the triangle, you'd need one or two of the RGB components to be negative. As I said above, that's fine in theory but not physically, so you need a larger triangle instead. Mitsubishi uses lasers for their new DLP, so they will get the corners right out at the curved edge.

    But even with three ideal corners, there'll still be some colors outside the triangle. The only way to reach more of those is to approximate the space with a polygon with more vertices. And more vertices here means more base colors than red, green, and blue.


    Sorry if I'm rambling...
     
  11. rendezvous

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    I thought it was less rambly than the pice in my prevoius quote. :)
    Thanks for the quick lesson in colour spaces and gamuts. :)

    So they are basically just expanding the gamut triangle by selecting better primary colours?
     
  12. Basic

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    Ah, good. Your welcome.

    Yes, the reson that these new monitors and projectors can show more colors is better primary colors. And xvYCC could be (I don't know anything about the standard) just RGB but using these new red, green, and blue as base colors instead. But it doesn't have to be. And since the name contains the abbrevation YCC, I guess the standard is similar to this instead.
     
  13. London Geezer

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    Wait a second.

    Do these new LCD screens actually have physical screens that can show this colour depth? Does it mean these screens have moved on from the usual 8-bit screens we get on LCDs?

    Or is this just an update of the internal processing?

    Cause the two are very, VERY different situations... If the screens can actually resolve all that colur, then that would REALLY show. But if they keep using 8-bit panels, but with a better internal processing, then the difference won't be as apparent...
     
  14. Arwin

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    Well, that was my impression anyway. I think my TV has a 10-bit panel, and with a better-than-PAL color range through the new extended wide color gamut (XWCG) feature. It certainly looks the part, anyway. Maybe there are more knowledgeable people here on the forum.

    http://www.samsung.com/uk/products/television/tftlcd/le40n73bdxxeu.asp?page=Features
     
  15. London Geezer

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    I don't think even 10-bit would be enough to resolve Depp Colour.

    I think that internal processing in 48-bit (i think that's the magic number?), but keeping the panel at 8-bit will help with banding issues, but we haven't have banding issues for ages now, so i wouldn't see much point in releasing TVs that "can accept" Deep Colour, but aren't able to actually show it.

    It's very much like early Plasmas which could "accept" high definition signals, but having only 480p panels, couldn't actually resolve the higher resolution...
     
  16. Carl B

    Carl B Friends call me xbd
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    10-bit per component is a part of 'Deep Color.'

    It's sort of a catch-all term to describe products supporting 10-bit, 12-bit, and/or 16-bit per component. Unless there's some marketing fanciness going on, that set of yours - or rather the panel - is indeed Deep Color capable L-B... but you have to realize that without HDMI1.3 to carry the signal, it is all for naught and you'll never see it put up a DC image.

    LCD panels being in the 10-bit capable range for some time now has been part of Sony's motivating factor in getting Deep Color and xvYCC 'out there' in the consumer space, since they of course are heavily focused in LCD at the present time.
     
  17. DudeMiester

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    It is the physical screen that has the added colour gamut. By using the coloured LED backlighting you can get a wider range of colours actually displayed. Certainly the dynamic range is greatly improved.
     
  18. London Geezer

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    Well i have a typical 8-bit panel so i'm screwed.

    And wouldn't a so-called 10-bit panel "only" give 30-bit colour? What exactly is Deep Colour anyway, 48-bit or more?

    I'll just wait for those fabulous OLED screens i think.
    :smile:
     
  19. Simon F

    Simon F Tea maker
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    Does anyone know if there are any public docs describing xvYcc? I could only locate an abstract. :???:
     
  20. Carl B

    Carl B Friends call me xbd
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    Not sure... but searching for technical standard IEC 61966-2-4 would probably be the best way to locate a full description, if indeed one is publically available.
     
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