Software is a product and requires warranty

[Frank]

Or so a Dutch high judge has ruled.

Under the EU rules, that means that bought software has to comply with consumer expectations for at least two years, or be fixed. If not, the consumer has the right to return it for a full refund, without questions asked.

The (re-)seller is responsible, and it doesn't matter where they originate, if they sell it to a Dutch citizen. So I expect that refund won't be a problem for private persons.

But businesses now can demand a fix from the likes of Microsoft.

The BSA has already taken action and is trying to cancel it.



Interesting times.


Edit: games with only 3-5 activations which require a live internet connection to play even single-player and bad copy-protection that makes it break for many customers will probably be the first victims. And rightfully so!

 

[Albuquerque]

OOoooh, interesting precedent. Wonder if you'll get places that start selling "software as a service" to somehow go looking for legal loopholes.

 

[Frank]

The ruling is for the duration of the contract, plus two years.

The former loophole was, that consumers never became owner, but mostly had to be happy they were licensed to be able to use that software. And most EULA's specified that the responsibility of even doing so was fully theirs, even if it caused a nuclear meltdown and millions of people died. Or something to that effect.

The current ruling equalizes that license to ownership for the duration of the contract, so those EULA's have to comply with the basic laws, which demand a full two-year warranty, that evaluates consumer expectations.

So, if it isn't explicitly and very readable stated on the outside of the box, it doesn't count.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Or in the extreme cases just stop selling software (games) in Holland? It's a small enough market that while it might hurt a tiny bit, it may hurt less than trying to comply with the ruling.

Regards,
SB

 

[Grall]

Of course it's a product. They should have been obligated to offer warranties all along.

And LOL @ the BSA fighting this btw, they're such hypocrite bastards. Whining and crying over piracy, but don't want to be responsible for anything themselves - other than collecting a lot of money and rolling around in it that is...

 

[Davros]

about bloody time..
software vendors have for too long expected to have all the advantages of just selling a license but none of the disadvantages, and ll the advantages of just selling a product but none of the disadvantages,

 

[Frank]

@Silent_Buddha:

Then again, it's is just the kind of ruling that fits snugly with the other EU consumer protections, so the expectation is that more precedents are needed to flesh it out, but that it very likely will be made into a general EU law when that has happened.

That's why the BSA is very not-amused.

A similar ruling in the US was suspended indefinitely a year ago.

 

[Florin]

about bloody time..
software vendors have for too long expected to have all the advantages of just selling a license but none of the disadvantages, and ll the advantages of just selling a product but none of the disadvantages,

It does seem to make sense that if 'intellectual property' can be sold for real money, expects similar protections to real property and, as some claim, can even be stolen, that customers should then also have the right to return it, hold the maker responsible for damages caused by it, and resell it.

On a related note, I believe the EU is the greatest country in the world.

 

[Frank]

On a related note, I believe the EU is the greatest country in the world.

 

[pcchen]

The ruling is for the duration of the contract, plus two years.

The former loophole was, that consumers never became owner, but mostly had to be happy they were licensed to be able to use that software. And most EULA's specified that the responsibility of even doing so was fully theirs, even if it caused a nuclear meltdown and millions of people died. Or something to that effect.

The current ruling equalizes that license to ownership for the duration of the contract, so those EULA's have to comply with the basic laws, which demand a full two-year warranty, that evaluates consumer expectations.

So, if it isn't explicitly and very readable stated on the outside of the box, it doesn't count.

A lot of software companies selling to businesses already went to service model. For example, Microsoft did this a few years ago (i.e. companies signs a contract and pay so they can use Microsoft products for a year, if they want to use these for another year they have to pay again). So this is probably only going to matter mostly for general consumers.

However, even consumer oriented softwares are going service model. The obvious examples are MMORPG, but even some non-online games are going this way. If these kinds of laws becomes more widespread then I guess more companies will try to push this model to most of their customers.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

A lot of utility programs are going with the service model also. Anti-virus, picture display and manipulation, dvd ripping and burning suites, etc...

I was going to set my Dad up with Slysoft's Anydvd recently so he could rip movies for use on the netbook he'd just gotten for trips and was surprised to find that you no longer buy it, but instead sign up for a service contract for a limited period of time. Then again I wasn't TOO surprised. I found it a bit ironic that one of the most frequently used applications for pirating movies was itself one of the most pirated applications. And they are attempting to curb pirating of their own software while indirectly promoting its use to pirate movies.

Regards,
SB

 

[rpg.314]

About time too. I hope this starts an era of more reliable software.

HASKELL FTW.

 

[WhiningKhan]

I was going to set my Dad up with Slysoft's Anydvd recently so he could rip movies for use on the netbook he'd just gotten for trips and was surprised to find that you no longer buy it, but instead sign up for a service contract for a limited period of time. Then again I wasn't TOO surprised. I found it a bit ironic that one of the most frequently used applications for pirating movies was itself one of the most pirated applications. And they are attempting to curb pirating of their own software while indirectly promoting its use to pirate movies.

That kinda makes sense though - if you bought a version of AnyDVD, at some point you would notice that it is unable to read new BD movies since the encryption has changed. It is clearly a product requiring constant maintenance. If the existing functionality does not expire, this is a sensible and fair business model which I support. What I don't support is a model where software stops working after 6 months of use unless we renew the license, that feels like an artifical attempt to keep money flowing.

 

[Frank]

A lot of software companies selling to businesses already went to service model. For example, Microsoft did this a few years ago (i.e. companies signs a contract and pay so they can use Microsoft products for a year, if they want to use these for another year they have to pay again). So this is probably only going to matter mostly for general consumers.

However, even consumer oriented softwares are going service model. The obvious examples are MMORPG, but even some non-online games are going this way. If these kinds of laws becomes more widespread then I guess more companies will try to push this model to most of their customers.

Yes, but that makes this ruling even more strict: if Microsoft has a contract with those companies, they can now require Microsoft to fix everything that isn't in line with their expectations of the product, or get their money back.

That leaves Microsoft with proving alleged bugs are features the company should have expected up front, or companies switching to OpenOffice and their likes. And the difference between MS Office 2003 and 2007 is a lot larger than between MS Office 2003 and OpenOffice.

In the here-and-now, that gives companies a powerful instrument to renegociate their contract, and the supporters of alternative platform software a willing ear.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

That kinda makes sense though - if you bought a version of AnyDVD, at some point you would notice that it is unable to read new BD movies since the encryption has changed. It is clearly a product requiring constant maintenance. If the existing functionality does not expire, this is a sensible and fair business model which I support. What I don't support is a model where software stops working after 6 months of use unless we renew the license, that feels like an artifical attempt to keep money flowing.

That's exactly what happens with Anydvd. My father has no intention of getting a BluRay player now or in the future (unless DVD becomes extinct). But with their service contract, the software will stop working after X time period if you do not buy it again.

Oh interesting, it looks like they changed their policy again. Just went to look up their price and they've changed it yet again. Now you can buy a lifetime service at a fairly high price.

Either way, hopefully that'll be the model that most software companies move to instead of the forced renewal every X years.

Yes, thank you Holland and probably soon the EU for forcing us to pay MORE money for software as more companies move to service plans with X yearly renewal fee's.

I'm certainly going to be happy camper when games start releasing as services and after 1-2 years you have to renew your service to continue playing it. What will be funny is if you pick up X game in the bargain bin for 5 USD but after 1-2 years it'll cost you 10-20 USD to renew your service to play it.

Regards,
SB

 

[Frank]

The only parties hurt by very high software prices are companies who sell those products, as there are many alternatives.

Consumers can simply pirate it: less hassles.

 

[BRiT]

The only way this makes any sense is if software has at least two classifications, one with and one without warranty. This is the difference in consumer and enterprise solutions. It's outrageous to expect enterprise support at consumer prices.

As a consumer it doesn't make sense to me that the typical software I purchase today in the $20-$50 range need be required to provide this. In some cases it could easily drive the software cost up to or over the $200 mark. Even at the $50 mark I typically wait until prices hit the $30-$20 range. As a consumer, if the identical software costs $100 I wouldn't even consider purchasing it. I would pirate it.

The typical software I purchase today over the $200 mark, especially over the $2000 range I expect to function and be maintained continually. I expect to pay for this level of support.

 

[Davros]

I dont think people are expecting lifetime tech support, but the software should work and publishers should not be able to pull any of this crap

IN NO EVENT WILL ACTIVISION BE LIABLE FOR SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGE RESULTING FROM POSSESSION, USE OR MALFUNCTION OF THIS PRODUCT, INCLUDING DAMAGE TO PROPERTY AND, TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW, DAMAGES FOR PERSONAL INJURY, EVEN IF ACTIVISION HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES. SOME STATES DO NOT ALLOW LIMITATIONS ON HOW LONG AN IMPLIED WARRANTY LASTS AND/OR THE EXCLUSION OR LIMITATION OF INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES, SO THE ABOVE LIMITATIONS AND/OR EXCLUSION OR LIMITATION OF LIABILITY MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU.
INDEMNITY: You agree to indemnify, defend and hold Licensor, its partners, licensors, affiliates, contractors, officers, directors, employees and agents harmless from all damages, losses and expenses arising directly or indirectly from your acts and omissions to act in using the Software pursuant to the terms of the Agreement

 

[Frank]

Over here, most software could not be returned even if it doesn't work, because they expect you to have ripped it anyway.

And I expect that you (BRiT and Silent_Buddah) think that any warranty is useless because it increases costs?

Over here, with a guaranteed 2-year varranty on anything I buy that is expected to be in service for at least that long (and a longer, partial warranty for anything that is expected to be around for longer), I didn't notice any price increases.

On the contrary: now most goods can be bought for the same value in Euros as in dollars (instead of a 1:1 exchange), I get the same product for the same value, with additional warranty.

 

[Davros]

Ive been a software dev (on a very small scale)
and all of my software was guaranteed. If it didnt work properly you got a refund I didn't try to weasel out of it with some clause in an eula my software never even came with an eula why would i need one ? to say you cant make copies, thats in law doesnt have to be in an eula
eula's only exist to deny users their rights