So what exactly has next gen gotten us that last gen didn't.

[ralexand]

As far as I can tell the lighting models are greatly improved ie. HDR and developers can put more characters on the screen ie. Heavenly Sword, Kameo, 99Nights etc.

But it doesn't look like we're going to get 2 other things I was hoping for:

Deano says we're not going to get individually rendered hair like TSW and judging by most games shown so far Fifa, Fight Night etc. it doesn't look like we're going to get accurate flowing clothing in games. Am I off based with that assumption.

 

[scooby_dooby]

how can you judge based on 1st gen games?

 

[Wunderchu]

regarding realistically flowing cloth, I believe it will definitely be possible on the next gen. consoles ..... for example, if one has seen the DOA 4 trailer, one will notice quite realistic cloth flowing ... and according to Itagaki, the flowing cloth physics simulation will be improved over what is shown in the trailer:

Having seen the E3 trailer for DOA4, what aspects of the trailer are you still critical about?

Itagaki-san: Everything! There are many things I see that can be improved. Again, the trailer is still made off of the alpha version of the development tools so there are many features that are not yet available, such as more accurate fabric material simulation, which wasn’t all there yet.

[source: http://interviews.teamxbox.com/xbox/1170/Tomonobu-Itagaki-The-Bad-Question-Interview/p1 ]

 

[ralexand]

how can you judge based on 1st gen games?

I'm also basing it on what a developer has said.

regarding realistically flowing cloth, I believe it will definitely be possible on the next gen. consoles ..... for example, if one has seen the DOA 4 trailer, one will notice quite realistic cloth flowing ... and according to Itagaki, the flowing cloth physics simulation will be improved over what is shown in the trailer:

I hope you're right. The best example I've seen of this was the nba2K tech demo but none of the sports games that have been shown seem to have it.

 

[PARANOiA]

I'm also basing it on what a developer has said.

I think it's short-sighted to base your assumption for an entire console generation on the comments of one developer an an internet forum before any machines have been released. But that's just me.

 

[Bobbler]

The best example of realistic flowing clothes I've seen is the FF7 PS3 tech demo -- where Aeris first starts to walk.

I wouldn't worry too much. We're already getting great looking games and if you look at the average game at the launch last gen and then look at the games that were nearer to the end of the generation there is a nice gap -- I imagine next generation will be like that as well, it happens every generation.

 

[ralexand]

I'm also basing it on what a developer has said.

I think it's short-sighted to base your assumption for an entire console generation on the comments of one developer an an internet forum before any machines have been released. But that's just me.

But I'm also basing it on the games I'm seeing. It would seem like one developer would really push things in terms of hair and cloth rendering. None of the 2nd gen titles I've seen have done that.

 

[PARANOiA]

Titles which are not launch titles are not automatically second gen titles. I think it's fair to say we haven't seen ANY second gen titles yet.

 

[jvd]

Titles which are not launch titles are not automatically second gen titles. I think it's fair to say we haven't seen ANY second gen titles yet.

So gears of war by your standards is a 2nd gen game ?

Don't think so . Second gen games are those coming out in its second year . First gen games are the first year . Launch games aren't even a gen as most of the wor kwas done on alpha kits

 

[Bobbler]

I think Paranoia's point was that games that don't launch with the system aren't automatically 2nd gen -- so gears of war isn't necessarily 2nd gen, by his standards.

 

[PARANOiA]

So gears of war by your standards is a 2nd gen game ?

Don't think so . Second gen games are those coming out in its second year . First gen games are the first year . Launch games aren't even a gen as most of the wor kwas done on alpha kits

Calendar year or month of launch, or something else? Generations aren't measured like that (at least to my knowledge). By that ruling, any games released in the US PS2 launch was already 2nd gen, right?

Gears of War looks amazing like most other UE3 games, but generations aren't measured by "looks x% better than game released y months ago". Using UE3 well simply doesn't make it "2nd gen".

Out of curiosity, how long after launch is GOW due for release? I thought it was only 6 months, which is nowhere near a "generation" IMO.

 

[jvd]

Calendar year or month of launch, or something else? Generations aren't measured like that (at least to my knowledge). By that ruling, any games released in the US PS2 launch was already 2nd gen, right?

err i don't count a year diffrence . ONe was march and the other was november ? How is that a full year ?

Gears of War looks amazing like most other UE3 games, but generations aren't measured by "looks x% better than game released y months ago". Using UE3 well simply doesn't make it "2nd gen".

Right but we can't really tell generations apart . There is no fixed way of doing it . So how exactly do u sugest we do it

Out of curiosity, how long after launch is GOW due for release? I thought it was only 6 months, which is nowhere near a "generation" IMO.

think its 7

 

[PARANOiA]

JVD:

How can you argue GoW is a 2nd gen game seven months after the X360 launch, but dispute my PS2 Japanese -> US launch gap arguement which was eight months ?

And I don't suggest a given way to do it. In fact, my whole point was that we can't do it through simple rules. Read my first post, saying "non launch games aren't automatically 2nd gen games." My comment was in reference to the author stating he hasn't seen it in second gen games, but I don't think there are ANY second gen games.

If I was asked to give a definition, it would be more based on a more intricate knowledge of the hardware, and more advanced tools rather than simply age or graphical prowess. (And if the final machines haven't been delivered to developers yet, again, I don't think it's fair to say any games yet are 2nd gen).

But again, it's my opinion (not necessarily fact) that GoW isn't a 2nd gen game. Let's agree to disagree here, hey?

 

[Bobbler]

What's funny is that you guys are arguing about something that you agree on...

I have a feeling jvd thought you were saying GoW is a 2nd gen game, yet you weren't and you thought he was, yet he wasn't (at least if you read the actual words typed that is the situation).

 

[PARANOiA]

What's funny is that you guys are arguing about something that you agree on...

Welcome to the B3d console forum

 

[BTOA]

Titles which are not launch titles are not automatically second gen titles. I think it's fair to say we haven't seen ANY second gen titles yet.

So gears of war by your standards is a 2nd gen game ?

Don't think so . Second gen games are those coming out in its second year . First gen games are the first year . Launch games aren't even a gen as most of the wor kwas done on alpha kits

How can GoW be consider a second gen game when the developers already have GoW running? Is UE3 suppose to magically change and have massive improvement upon the engine to make the quality of the game be so much different then what it can already show and do? Maybe some tweaks here and there, but to me, I would consider GoW and UE3 a first gen game and engine for this coming gen.

 

[jimpo]

Don't think so . Second gen games are those coming out in its second year . First gen games are the first year . Launch games aren't even a gen as most of the wor kwas done on alpha kits

To me its more like: 1st gen game is one development team's first game on a platform, 2nd gen game their next project, where they have already some lessons learnt from their first project, and so on. No matter what the calendar says.

 

[London Geezer]

how can you judge based on 1st gen games?

How can he judge from unfinished 1st gen games, months before release of either the games or the consoles themselves!!!

Obviously we won't get hair like FFTSW or cloth dynamics on par with the best CGI movie out there, that's only normal. But they will look much better than the monstruosities seen on current gen consoles.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I think it's short-sighted to base your assumption for an entire console generation on the comments of one developer an an internet forum before any machines have been released. But that's just me.

But I'm also basing it on the games I'm seeing. It would seem like one developer would really push things in terms of hair and cloth rendering. None of the 2nd gen titles I've seen have done that.[/quote]
It's WAY too early to think devs know how to really use the hardware. At the moment they're just trying to get things to run, and not worry about adding fancy extras. It took PS2 a good while to get anything reasonable as devs learned how to write for the thing. Same next gen.

The LOD PS3 demo showed lots of physics, fluid dynamics and cloth simulation stuff. I expect in some later games, fighters especially with limited characters on screen, cloth simulation will be a part of the visuals. Perhaps the same for the hair (at least, limited hair modelling that has increased realism, if not per-strand micro-simulated hairdos.)

 

[ShootMyMonkey]

regarding realistically flowing cloth, I believe it will definitely be possible on the next gen. consoles ..... for example, if one has seen the DOA 4 trailer, one will notice quite realistic cloth flowing ... and according to Itagaki, the flowing cloth physics simulation will be improved over what is shown in the trailer:

Well, the main problem with the cloth sim in DOA is its independence. One sim part doesn't concern itself with the other sim parts. Probably doesn't do a thing for self-collision either. It only collides with the character collision geometry. Pretty much the same as the current DOA cloth sim.

Really, cloth sim and hair sim is not that difficult in the sense that we already know what goes into a decent one. But making a good one can only be solved with high granularity. Something like the FF7 tech demo, I can't see possible without some extremely high-poly sim mesh which is translated to dynamic normal maps which are rendered on a comparatively lower-poly mesh which itself shares some displaced verts from the high-granularity sim. Still, Aeris' dress is the only place I see it, so I have to initially believe it's just a pregenerated sim.