Shifty turns indie - "Adventures" family-friendly cooperative dungeon crawler

[Shifty Geezer]

Hi all, I'm much in need of some critical feedback here, so am revealing a little earlier than maybe I ought? Anyway, here's announcing 'Adventures in a Video Game', working title, might stick because it has potential. In short, a cooperative, party based 'loot and level' dungeon crawler in development for mobile and conceptually other platforms, with a few USPs greatly influenced by my work with children.


Place holder mockup graphics!

• Cooperative gaming - Ultimately, for me 'coop' means communication-based gameplay, talking about what people are doing and trying to do, calling on each other for help or giving instructions, and that's what I'm gunning for. I've played a lot of 'coop' games and generally they involve little more than hitting things at the same time. AiaVG requires actual coop as each character has limited skills and abilities. In it's simplest form, not all weapons work with all creatures, so one player may be good at killing jellies but no good against skeletons, and if they're getting chased by a skeleton, they'll need to run to a team-mate for help.
• Family friendly - I want a game even young children can enjoy, so the interface is kept very simple and there's focus on specific fun interactions. eg. the parent can freeze a monster with a spell enabling their child to 'squash it' with a tap. Should have some exciteable moments shouting out which creatures to freeze/squash, etc.. It is not a game for just small children though, and the gameplay needs to be satisfying for everyone.
  
• Morale system - I've seen plenty of kids at school who want to be smart or beautiful or athletic, yet no-one values being nice. I want a game where choosing to be nice (or a good cook, and maybe other options) is an option for players because they see the value in it. AiaVG features a moral system where players get demoralised by in-game events, and they need encouragement and support form the other players to cheer up and even get moral bonuses. Players can specialise in being nice and encouraging.
• Unique loot and skills ideas - One issue I take with the usual loot-and-level experience is most of the loot is crap and just filler. Playing Diablo 3 recently, it's all about the legendaries which means a couple of items every few hours of play. In AiaVG I have a Cunning Plan to ensure all loot has value and getting an item is always an event of interest.
• Environmental gameplay - Another thing I want to avoid is 'button mashing'. I want there to be lots of options for environmental interactions and more gameplay to focus on using these to kill monsters than basic weapon attacks.

An area of concern is the solo player experience. Although I want coop as the main draw, you can't always rely on having someone at hand to play with. I'm not sure what online networking will entail. I'm thinking of a party based solo experience where you select the character you are currently in control of, so could manoeuvre a character to create an ambush and then use another character to lead the monsters into the ambush.

Platforms are mobile because it's an ideal interface for local coop, each player having their own screen, and it has a price of entry I can afford to pay! The idea of console versions is an option, but I'm not sure how best to implement it. It should probably be all together on the same console. A PC version can also work and the option of one player on PC and other(s) on mobile.

What do you think?

 

[orangpelupa]

the art looks cute but maybe too dark themed? So it feels like a clash of cheerful x mischief

i think you can take ideas from Portal 2 Co-op for the following points:

• Cooperative gaming
• Morale system
• Environmental gameplay

In portal 2, you are encouraged to work together to manipulate the environment. People with different skill need to do the thing they are comfortable, dont force each other. Forcing each other will only make the puzzle harder to finish (and Glados spouting stuff at you).

as a bonus, i think it will be good to also incorporate

• * the developer thinks all
• emergent gameplay

so.. if the player doing something ridiculous like swinging sword to each other face, the game give a respond. Can be mixed with the moral too.

the player also allowed to do stuff not as you (the dev) planned. Like maybe.. you can push your own friend (by slashing them) to throw them to enemy. Normally the solution wont need this method, but you allow such emergent method.

EDIT:
btw dont take my post too serious. I never actually sell any games lol.

 

[Cjail]

Well I will gladly provide feedback on UI and HUD, that's an area where think I can help.
I would need to see more of course.

In therms of loot MAYBE you could not focus on stats but rather offer legendary/special loot/items that truly add something to the gamepaly.
Most game just give you better stats rather than unique weapon that do something truly, well, unique/rare.
Example: in Blood Omen the mace or the flame sword were statistically not better than the sword because had disadvantages as well, they just had had unique proprieties that made them useful depending on you playstyle.

 

[orangpelupa]

@Cjail
like the various weapons in classic 2D isometric zelda*? The old weapons also did not become useless because its still can be used to manipulate the environment and uniquely affect the boss.

*i have not played any classic zelda, i just watched egoraptor's video >_<

Spoiler

 

[iroboto]

I like the family friendly, morale, and co-op system idea. We likely need more of those types of games as we don't have a lot of it.

There are likely some inspirations you can draw from evolve, essentially nothing works if the team doesn't work together, and yet they can all sort of -solo- things, but not really. They have a decent balance of requiring team play for the most part, and at times you can venture off on your own.

The morale system might be hard to convey, but I think things like healing other members, aiding other members, etc can also be a source of morale. These things tended to happen a lot in MMO, healers would run by seeing people soloing' their quest mob, and they would drive by buff and heal people. It's definitely human nature for people to want to help each other, and maybe you can capitalize on behaviours/actions that are meant to buff/heal other players and also add the morale part of it to it.

Environmental gameplay is a good idea. We should be avoiding button mashing. It's just very ... casual as a game to just thoughtlessly button mash. There are multiple ways to address this, I guess it depends on how hardcore you want to go on it. Some games use things like stamina, some games have very little health, so only a couple hits you die, some games use block and counter mechanics, etc. I guess the most basic form of not button mashing might be playing Mike Tyson's punch out. lol and I was never super great at that, but when I think about it, great game. Anyway, I'm sure you've got a good idea for this - and it's a good fit for mobile games.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

In portal 2, you are encouraged to work together to manipulate the environment. People with different skill need to do the thing they are comfortable, dont force each other. Forcing each other will only make the puzzle harder to finish (and Glados spouting stuff at you).

Levels are procedural. There won't be puzzles beyond the strategy of the current situation, at least at first. Manipulation will be more about luring a monster onto a trap and a lever elsewhere activates it, or standing in front of a door so the monsters can't open it while someone goes round back.

as a bonus, i think it will be good to also incorporate

• * the developer thinks all
• emergent gameplay

so.. if the player doing something ridiculous like swinging sword to each other face, the game give a respond. Can be mixed with the moral too.

That's quite a cool idea, but more work than I can commit to. There'll be friendly fire as something to manage, and that'll depress people and need morale boosts.

the player also allowed to do stuff not as you (the dev) planned. Like maybe.. you can push your own friend (by slashing them) to throw them to enemy. Normally the solution wont need this method, but you allow such emergent method.

Yep! Games are supposed to be fun. If people can find fun ways to do stuff unintended, that's a plus. If I can come up with a decent enough procedural environment system, there might be more of this, but there's actually a communication issue with that. Any new events/experience/situation needs visual cues to understand it, which requires graphics and sounds. So a flame pit might have little flames under a grill and a wire tracing back to a lever - obvious. But then each environmental item would need to be designed. That said, even a few flexible items can be a big plus, so I shouldn't try for anything toooo big. Creatable and destroyable walls/obstructions count for a lot.

btw dont take my post too serious. I never actually sell any games lol.

Neither have I!

Well I will gladly provide feedback on UI and HUD, that's an area where think I can help.

Thanks. I need to secure me an artist too.

In therms of loot MAYBE you could not focus on stats but rather offer legendary/special loot/items that truly add something to the gamepaly.

So my loot system design has the skills tied to the equipment, so every item has (a) different skill(s). That means every drop has the option to change your character or play experience. A crafting system would allow you to salvage the skills you like the most, so then items you find still have significance. That is, if you have a wand with a fireball spell and want to level it, you'll want to find loot you can salvage and craft to improve your fireballing wand. That needs quite a bit of designing if its ever to work!

My design process has (and is) been led from imagining the players' experience. I want to be working through this dungeon and then a piece of loot appears, and I want that to be a Big Thing in the same way it's a Big Thing every time you get a legendary drop in D3. And I hate the perpetual, bigger numbers tropes. Anyone played Path Of Exile? It's a laughably complex spreadsheet of a game, and it robs meaning from all the numbers. I don't want that! So I'm thinking that by connecting the loot with the skills system, you have this constant variation. Levelling up won't unlock skills, but will unlock higher level skills on loot - the levelling mechanic has to remain as that sense of progress. Between the levelling and the drops, you should get a new choice or thing to try every few minutes.

The morale system might be hard to convey, but I think things like healing other members, aiding other members, etc can also be a source of morale.

Morale is visible in the characters who range in movement from animated, fast, adventurous, through to slow, low head, dragged feet, and a lack of animation in their actions. You literally see the characters getting depressed. Characters will have a thought bubble when they are thinking of saying something. Very nice characters will have lots of compliments and encouraging remarks. Some characters will be full of insults and criticisms... If you press the thought bubble, your character says what it shows with the accompanying impact on the other characters. eg. Someone is having trouble hitting a monster and is taking quite a few hits, and starting to get fed up. Another player says, "you can do it!" and they perk up a bit and increase their chance to hit.

Very nice characters (higher level 'nice' profession) will be able to find packs of crafting items and make little presents like friendship bracelets and "You're wonderful" cards, which will be completely necessary as a team dynamic when facing tougher opponents and/or depressing areas.

 

[Cjail]

@Shifty Geezer

IMO it would be perfect if you could apply/use your animations/morale system to display the characters' status instead of using/relying on HP bars.
If the character is wounded/fatigued/healthy this way it would visibly appear so.
You would not clutter the screen with bars this way, which is not only elegant but practical for a mobile game where screen space is limited.

I don't know if that would be too complex so maybe I am talking nonsense...a man can dream!

 

[iroboto]

Levels are procedural. There won't be puzzles beyond the strategy of the current situation, at least at first. Manipulation will be more about luring a monster onto a trap and a lever elsewhere activates it, or standing in front of a door so the monsters can't open it while someone goes round back.

That's quite a cool idea, but more work than I can commit to. There'll be friendly fire as something to manage, and that'll depress people and need morale boosts.

Yep! Games are supposed to be fun. If people can find fun ways to do stuff unintended, that's a plus. If I can come up with a decent enough procedural environment system, there might be more of this, but there's actually a communication issue with that. Any new events/experience/situation needs visual cues to understand it, which requires graphics and sounds. So a flame pit might have little flames under a grill and a wire tracing back to a lever - obvious. But then each environmental item would need to be designed. That said, even a few flexible items can be a big plus, so I shouldn't try for anything toooo big. Creatable and destroyable walls/obstructions count for a lot.

Neither have I!

Thanks. I need to secure me an artist too.

So my loot system design has the skills tied to the equipment, so every item has (a) different skill(s). That means every drop has the option to change your character or play experience. A crafting system would allow you to salvage the skills you like the most, so then items you find still have significance. That is, if you have a wand with a fireball spell and want to level it, you'll want to find loot you can salvage and craft to improve your fireballing wand. That needs quite a bit of designing if its ever to work!

My design process has (and is) been led from imagining the players' experience. I want to be working through this dungeon and then a piece of loot appears, and I want that to be a Big Thing in the same way it's a Big Thing every time you get a legendary drop in D3. And I hate the perpetual, bigger numbers tropes. Anyone played Path Of Exile? It's a laughably complex spreadsheet of a game, and it robs meaning from all the numbers. I don't want that! So I'm thinking that by connecting the loot with the skills system, you have this constant variation. Levelling up won't unlock skills, but will unlock higher level skills on loot - the levelling mechanic has to remain as that sense of progress. Between the levelling and the drops, you should get a new choice or thing to try every few minutes.

Morale is visible in the characters who range in movement from animated, fast, adventurous, through to slow, low head, dragged feet, and a lack of animation in their actions. You literally see the characters getting depressed. Characters will have a thought bubble when they are thinking of saying something. Very nice characters will have lots of compliments and encouraging remarks. Some characters will be full of insults and criticisms... If you press the thought bubble, your character says what it shows with the accompanying impact on the other characters. eg. Someone is having trouble hitting a monster and is taking quite a few hits, and starting to get fed up. Another player says, "you can do it!" and they perk up a bit and increase their chance to hit.

Very nice characters (higher level 'nice' profession) will be able to find packs of crafting items and make little presents like friendship bracelets and "You're wonderful" cards, which will be completely necessary as a team dynamic when facing tougher opponents and/or depressing areas.

just curious but how long did you spend designing the mechanics of the game? Did you find this aspect harder than the programming aspect? What has the experience been like so far?
I'm coding, for no reason, to make a game, seems like an obsession, but I have no game design in mind, so i'm just going to be coding basic mechanics and seeing how to make those basic mechanics fun. But I've yet to still really have a 'design'

 

[dobwal]

• Morale system - I've seen plenty of kids at school who want to be smart or beautiful or athletic, yet no-one values being nice. I want a game where choosing to be nice (or a good cook, and maybe other options) is an option for players because they see the value in it. AiaVG features a moral system where players get demoralised by in-game events, and they need encouragement and support form the other players to cheer up and even get moral bonuses. Players can specialise in being nice and encouraging.

Thats unique. I commend you for trying something different especially a mechanic that encourages compassion amongst children.

You should change your name to Papa Smurf. The Shifty Geezer name is more synonymous with Gargamel and I imagine if you were anything like him you would have built a trap mechanic that allows players to turn other players into chocolate or gold.

LOL.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

IMO it would be perfect if you could apply/use your animations/morale system to display the characters' status instead of using/relying on HP bars.

I don't think I can manage that. I'm using Unity and its animation abilities aren't that great. I have the morale mechanic visible but not health as well, which is far from ideal. I'm still looking at a health bar somewhere.

just curious but how long did you spend designing the mechanics of the game? Did you find this aspect harder than the programming aspect? What has the experience been like so far?

I love designing and ideas, and have millions of them. Too many! A problem here is that you don't know which ideas other people will value most, so it can get difficult to pin down a design or commit. I've other projects I can be doing instead like my presently shelved space shooter - how do you choose between them? If you have a passion than you make it because you want to, and it doesn't matter so much if it isn't popular, but otherwise the stress of trying to guess what Joe Public wants to play can take some of the fun out of design.

Development is, on the other hand, very boring and difficult for me. Don't enjoy it. Sometimes, when problem solving how to do procedural content say, or implementing swappable sprites in Unity, it's satisfying, but the relentless lists of things still to do that grow faster than you can work at them, and the hassles of buggy and poorly documented libraries and services, get very demoralising. You also have 'finished' solutions that end up being buggy and you realise you need a complete rewrite. I picked a tile design to keep the mechanics simple, yet getting tile based movement working took a couple of weeks of head scratching as I wanted players to be able to change direction partway. Still has a rare bug where characters can move onto the same tile. Gah!

I'm coding, for no reason, to make a game, seems like an obsession, but I have no game design in mind, so i'm just going to be coding basic mechanics and seeing how to make those basic mechanics fun. But I've yet to still really have a 'design'

Mechanics can work well as a starting point. Back when every man and his dog was creating Flappy Bird clones, I created a similar but not crap balloon puffing game*. The prototype physics of the balloon was done in two hours and were very satisfying. It was then a matter of months to refine it into a polished game (that hasn't been all that well received!). I think LBP started with a simple physics mechanic too, just a physical platformer. That's something Unity et al are good for - trying simple ideas out and seeing what feels good.Unity's support of controllers is very nice, and it's easy to prototype console games or mobile or combos.

* Website if you want to check it out : http://softwaregeezers.weebly.com/

 

[Billy Idol]

How do you manage difficulty settings?

Imo one of the best things in D3 is that the game can be as difficult as you want to.

Furthermore, difficulty levels also show how you character progresses...Torment 1 was super difficult at first...now my D3 char can't even die in T6...if you manage somehow to show the gamer that he really improves when he keeps playing and leveling up...game is going to be addictive!!

Btw, where can I sign up for the beta??

 

[Shifty Geezer]

How do you manage difficulty settings?

That's something I've got to look into. D3 is a very different kettle of fish because difficulty is all about the numbers. Something like variety of monsters at once should make AiaVG harder as you'd need better team management.

Btw, where can I sign up for the beta??

I'll have Beta testing available within some weeks. I want enough of a game for testing to be meaningful. I suppose I can make a PC client available as well as Android and iOS versions whether I release on PC or not.

 

[Davros]

Shifty come listen to the wisdom of uncle Davros.
You know what review site would love this type of game ?
Christ Centered Gamer (dont laugh) they would give you a good score and probably a few good quotes, usefull for mentioning in any publicity you put out
better to put 9/10 CCG rather than 9/10 Christ Centered Gamer.
The skeletons may count against you though (a bit hypocritical a site called Christ Centered Gamer marks games down for invoking the supernatural)

 

[London Geezer]

Shifty come listen to the wisdom of uncle Davros.
You know what review site would love this type of game ?
Christ Centered Gamer (dont laugh) they would give you a good score and probably a few good quotes, usefull for mentioning in any publicity you put out
better to put 9/10 CCG rather than 9/10 Christ Centered Gamer.
The skeletons may count against you though (a bit hypocritical a site called Christ Centered Gamer marks games down for invoking the supernatural)

You never fail to amaze me. A small part of me kinda knew you were being serious, but I still didn't want to believe. Yet I checked and indeed, Christ Centered Gamer exists. It's a thing. And I thank you.

Shifty my love, just the fact that you created this is brilliant. I applaud you.

 

[orangpelupa]

im curious about the ties between difficulty, gameplay+morale, teamwork, level design. If its flooding player with enemies, it potentially make the player too focused on one aspect and forgot the other (like when playing destiny, i forgot my team are dead, i forgot to revive them, i forgot to use the environment to hide).

 

[Cjail]

I don't think I can manage that. I'm using Unity and its animation abilities aren't that great. I have the morale mechanic visible but not health as well, which is far from ideal. I'm still looking at a health bar somewhere.

I think I can help anyway.
A couple of questions though:
1) Do you plan to have a MP/Stamina system?
2) Do you plan to have altered status such as poison, stun, etc...?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Shifty come listen to the wisdom of uncle Davros...

Good idea! Many thanks. TBH the PR side scares me somewhat. I recall horror stories of crazy PR stunts and can imagine myself doing something similar.

Shifty my love, just the fact that you created this is brilliant. I applaud you.

Thanks!

im curious about the ties between difficulty, gameplay+morale, teamwork, level design. If its flooding player with enemies, it potentially make the player too focused on one aspect and forgot the other (like when playing destiny, i forgot my team are dead, i forgot to revive them, i forgot to use the environment to hide).

Can't really answer that. It'll be a matter of play-testing the mechanics and finding balances that work. Beta testing will be important, and no doubt frustrating as everyone wants different things!

I think I can help anyway.
A couple of questions though:
1) Do you plan to have a MP/Stamina system?

Skills will be on cooldown. The only resources are morale and health.

2) Do you plan to have altered status such as poison, stun, etc...?

Yep, very much so.

One UI issue that's mildly bothering me is how to communicate resistances when someone starts a character or equips an item. How do you show that the archer is no good against skeletons without needing a character sheet? I did think colour coding enemies with weapon types, but I'm reserving colour coding for my spells. I suppose an icon when they hit would show resistance. Typically I think games use coloured damage text, but I don't really want damage numbers. Either it needs to be clear to all players who is best against which enemies, or you leave as part of the learning curve and players will eventually learn via trial and error, and veterans can inform new players? Leave it to the Wiki's to answer?

 

[orangpelupa]

for that archer vs skeleton. Maybe when player attack the skeleton, the arrow will simply bounce? Depending on the system, it can be left to the physics to do the animation, or need manual bounce animation.

then when archer shoots fire arrow,, it sticks and burn the skeleton (like, 1 seconds burning effect).

 

[Arwin]

I'd personally would like to see the game work on one tablet screen - these things support five fingers at once, so could be doable. I don't see two kids of this age setting up network play on mobiles, even today? I could be wrong though, but even if I am, I haven't seen anything in your game that would benefit players from being able to wander off from each other. This type of game you'd normally want to stay together, always?

As for health, there are the usual things. Can't you for instance change the transparency or color-to-bw for just the character that is not doing well?

 

[Cjail]

@Shifty Geezer

Arwin's idea is good IMO.
For instance you could display the charter in full colour when it's fine, in red when it's in danger and desaturated (black & white) when it's near death.
No HP bars needed, screen space saved.

Instead of the classic HP bars you could display each character's face in a circle/window (Lego games do this) AND "disfigure" them the more damage they take.
Basically players would see bruises, livid, blood, cuts appear on the face of the charters.(You could apply this to altered status as well.
If the character is poisoned then his/her skin could appear green; a chilled/frozen charter's skin would appear blue; etc...)
It's bit "cartoonish" so I don't know if this matches the style of your game but I think it would be less sterile than a HP bar/icon, or use hearts.

Of course for the various altered status you could simply use symbols/icons over the characters' heads so that every payer can see them.