Serious concerns about moderation --RPSC

[pascal]

I have ben a menber of this site for a long time and I am proud of it.
I have always tried to add value to the site, I always tried to be civil with other menbers tried to obey and complain with the moderators orientation.

Recentlly with the international problems of the world I expressed my concerns in the RPSC forum. And as a result I got insulted directlly/indirectlly some times like by a person who is currently in my ignore list (Powderkeg). Examples:
- hypocrit
- go back to plot how to blow up jews
- Nazi (indirectlly)
- Hezbollah supporter (indirectlly)

I reported what I could using the "report bad post" mechanism.

At certain point I tried to make fun of the situation but decided to defend my dignity myself which I admit was a wrong decision: http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32471&page=11

The person in question had most time received a private atention from the moderator but in my case I feel like being exposed in public by the same moderator.
There is even an insinuation of creating a thread called "Brazil: Nazi or Not".
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32471&page=12
Since this happened in public I feel compiled to in public report the facts.

Few days ago I thought in not participating on this site anymore, then I decided to stay.
I hope I have not had a bad decision staying.

I expect some respected from the old-timers and moderators/rulers of this site and that this post will not be deleted.

Thanks for your time and best wishes
Pascal

 

[_xxx_]

How about just keeping away from RPSC forum?

 

[pascal]

Thanks, I will do that from now on.

 

[Rodéric]

Even I never go into the General Forum.

 

[_xxx_]

Was not meant to be pun - it's just not worth the trouble. And there are many political forums out there for those really interested in such stuff.

 

[nintenho]

Don't flatter him. He's just looking for a reason to give you the third degree.

 

[pascal]

Was not meant to be pun - it's just not worth the trouble. And there are many political forums out there for those really interested in such stuff.

I think I just have added this Thanks all again. Really not going back there.

 

[Geo]

I have ben a menber of this site for a long time and I am proud of it.
I have always tried to add value to the site, I always tried to be civil with other menbers tried to obey and complain with the moderators orientation.

Recentlly with the international problems of the world I expressed my concerns in the RPSC forum. And as a result I got insulted directlly/indirectlly some times like by a person who is currently in my ignore list (Powderkeg). Examples:
- hypocrit
- go back to plot how to blow up jews
- Nazi (indirectlly)
- Hezbollah supporter (indirectlly)

I reported what I could using the "report bad post" mechanism.

At certain point I tried to make fun of the situation but decided to defend my dignity myself which I admit was a wrong decision: http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32471&page=11

The person in question had most time received a private atention from the moderator but in my case I feel like being exposed in public by the same moderator.
There is even an insinuation of creating a thread called "Brazil: Nazi or Not".
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32471&page=12
Since this happened in public I feel compiled to in public report the facts.

Few days ago I thought in not participating on this site anymore, then I decided to stay.
I hope I have not had a bad decision staying.

I expect some respected from the old-timers and moderators/rulers of this site and that this post will not be deleted.

Thanks for your time and best wishes
Pascal

Can you point at the post on "go back to blow up jews"? I must admit I missed that, and it would certainly be actionable if addressed about you personally.

As to "Brazil: Nazis or Not?", please note the post in question said "deleted or moved. . ."

I am curious tho, why such a thread would be inappropriate in RPSC? There would be no need for you (or anyone else) to visit it, certainly. But it would be no more controversial than many other threads that survive. Brazil, per se, gets nor is deserving of more protection in RPSC than the US, Israel, Lebanon, Hezbollah, etc. I assure you "Israel: Nazis or not?" would not be closed down either. Nor, for all of me, would any other generic label put before the colon.

But the real point of that comment was that I perceived the Brazil threadlet (re the past Nazi ties of Brazil) had devolved into "thread-crapping", which is the effort to derail a thread (in this case why Lebanese civilian casualties were so high) with non-related material. The only thing to do in such a case is start deleting posts, or move them. Personally, I dislike deleting posts in RPSC unless they contain actionable personal insults to other members containing known insult words. Those I've deleted a bunch of, or edited a long post with a lot of regular political material to remove the insult. Moving the posts elsewhere would have, I suspect, removed the desire to talk about that given subject much more as it would no longer derail the thread subject.

The point is to avoid censorship of ideas. If members would like the moderation of RPSC to remove controversy, then I suppose we could, but I'm less sure that the result would be a board that is worth much.

But I am curious --why would Brazil deserve more consideration in this than any other nation or public entity?

"Hypocrisy" is a tough one. It gets used a whole lot in RPSC. If the members as a group think it should be moderated, we could take that under consideration. As the charge is a very current one in politics, again, I'd be concerned about impacting legitimate political debate.

As to "indirect" insults, I think that's hopeless. If every American, Brit, Pro-Israel, Christian, Muslim, etc took criticism of the generic label to be an "indirect insult" to them personally, again, we're left with a board where you can't criticize those generic labels, and not much left to talk about.

There have been proposals to close down RPSC entirely as not worth the trouble. We could do that as well, stick a note on GD that Political, Religion, etc threads will be deleted, and return our graphics site to what it's supposed to be about, graphics, rather than waste all this moderator time on RPSC trying to do an inherently impossible job in politics --making everyone happy.

 

[_xxx_]

Close it and add the "Buy/sell HW" forum, I'd say.

 

[Arun]

Close it and add the "Buy/sell HW" forum, I'd say.

Stop being so subjective, you don't represent all other users of Beyond3D

Purely IMO, the only thing we can and should do about RSPC is adopting a true Zero Tolerance policy. Insult anyone directly? 3 days ban, no warning. Next time, 1 week ban, then 3 weeks, then 3 months. And never, ever, delete a post there (unless it's spam) - if it's bad, add a red sticker to it so everyone knows what not do, and that's it. RSPC bans would be RSPC-only for the first one or two, then would also affect the rest of the site for a shorter durastion.

The risk, of course, is that people claim we're nazi mods after that...


Uttar

 

[Geo]

I'm tempted to propose: "RPSC: The Happy Place --Only Happy and Positive Comments Allowed".

But that would probably quickly end up with posts along the lines of "I am happy to report that I am positive that [insert bogeyman here] are still no good $#%^!"

 

[pascal]

Can you point at the post on "go back to blow up jews"? I must admit I missed that, and it would certainly be actionable if addressed about you personally.

Yes it was adressed to me in one of the post I reported. Someone deleted that post (moderator?) as others from him and some mine.
edited: it was go back Plot how to blow up Jews.

As to "Brazil: Nazis or Not?", please note the post in question said "deleted or moved. . ."

I am curious tho, why such a thread would be inappropriate in RPSC? There would be no need for you (or anyone else) to visit it, certainly. But it would be no more controversial than many other threads that survive. Brazil, per se, gets nor is deserving of more protection in RPSC than the US, Israel, Lebanon, Hezbollah, etc. I assure you "Israel: Nazis or not?" would not be closed down either. Nor, for all of me, would any other generic label put before the colon.

Sorry but I did not understand that way. "ABC:Nazis or Not?" for a thread about any country is IMHO bad taste.

But the real point of that comment was that I perceived the Brazil threadlet (re the past Nazi ties of Brazil) had devolved into "thread-crapping", which is the effort to derail a thread (in this case why Lebanese civilian casualties were so high) with non-related material. The only thing to do in such a case is start deleting posts, or move them. Personally, I dislike deleting posts in RPSC unless they contain actionable personal insults to other members containing known insult words. Those I've deleted a bunch of, or edited a long post with a lot of regular political material to remove the insult. Moving the posts elsewhere would have, I suspect, removed the desire to talk about that given subject much more as it would no longer derail the thread subject.

I perceived that action of going after my country as a way to indirect insulting me because as was defending a position which he didnt agree. A new way to try get personal after have tried to do it in the past and got post deleted.

The point is to avoid censorship of ideas. If members would like the moderation of RPSC to remove controversy, then I suppose we could, but I'm less sure that the result would be a board that is worth much.

For example you start a thread about casualties in Israel and at certain point someone who disagree with your point of view then start OT posts trying to find/point something bad about your country that happened many years ago and generalize it. Definitelly this person is targetting you and calling you indirectlly what he cant do directlly.

If he was legimatlly concerned about the past actions of my country he could have started the thread in an independent form.

But I am curious --why would Brazil deserve more consideration in this than any other nation or public entity?

I am not asking more consideration for the country but respect for me. Point one place where I indirectelly started to ofend you as example.
I was for example going to start a thread about how we (all countries) forgot war on drugs and how it is affecting countries, and my as case study.

"Hypocrisy" is a tough one. It gets used a whole lot in RPSC. If the members as a group think it should be moderated, we could take that under consideration. As the charge is a very current one in politics, again, I'd be concerned about impacting legitimate political debate.

As to "indirect" insults, I think that's hopeless. If every American, Brit, Pro-Israel, Christian, Muslim, etc took criticism of the generic label to be an "indirect insult" to them personally, again, we're left with a board where you can't criticize those generic labels, and not much left to talk about.

People should keep on topic as a normal flowing of the conversation as possible.

There have been proposals to close down RPSC entirely as not worth the trouble. We could do that as well, stick a note on GD that Political, Religion, etc threads will be deleted, and return our graphics site to what it's supposed to be about, graphics, rather than waste all this moderator time on RPSC trying to do an inherently impossible job in politics --making everyone happy.

Close RPSC has its pros and cons. If people were more civil and more fact finding this could be a good point of integration. The only advise I can give is to any moderator is to not participate on the discussions as you could be perceived as partial.

I will stay out of RPSC.

 

[Geo]

Stop being so subjective, you don't represent all other users of Beyond3D

Purely IMO, the only thing we can and should do about RSPC is adopting a true Zero Tolerance policy. Insult anyone directly? 3 days ban, no warning. Next time, 1 week ban, then 3 weeks, then 3 months. And never, ever, delete a post there (unless it's spam) - if it's bad, add a red sticker to it so everyone knows what not do, and that's it. RSPC bans would be RSPC-only for the first one or two, then would also affect the rest of the site for a shorter durastion.

The risk, of course, is that people claim we're nazi mods after that...

The problem with "insult", I've found to my sorrow, is that if your standard isn't obvious words pointed directly at a member like "you're stupid", you get into interpretation that requires a mod to take political sides. Is "You believe every thing [public entity A] says!" an insult? If the member it is directed at feels it is not true, then that member will indeed feel it is an insult, whether there are any nasty words in there or not. We have not been deleting those type of posts that don't contain obvious insult words pointed directly at another member, but there are complaints that we should.

Many legislative bodies enforce a rule that only the chair may be addressed, and that's exactly why, to create some emotional distance between members. But this is a conversational forum we're talking about here. . .trying to enforce a rule that says one member may not address another directly either in the second person (name, you, your) or the third person (name, he, him). . . can that work for a forum?

 

[Arun]

Once again, purely IMO, and I do not hereby represent Beyond3D as a whole, but...
Politics is all about people showing how extreme or illogical their opinions are, often unknowingly. Considering that, rationalizing completely insane things is a piece of cake on forums discussing these matters. This includes anything related to other members.

Either soneone's tolerant and agrees that even if "everyone's wrong but me" (TM), their opinion is still worth respecting, or that someone's not fit for a political forum. This is not directed specifically at you, pascal, but do consider that in order to justify other beliefs, it is easy for people to rationalize things affecting you or your country. Not becoming overly offended by such matters is a key requirement to properly participating in such discussions.

Personally, I'm all in favor of keeping RSPC - if everyone really hated it and wouldn't miss it, nobody would be reading and/or writing anything there. But obviously, the current situation in there just cannot continue, and things have to be changed so that it is maintainable long-term. Unless I'm wrong, of course, and even all the regulars from there would prefer to see it go, but I doubt that.


Uttar

 

[Geo]

Yes it was adressed to me in one of the post I reported. Someone deleted that post (moderator?) as others from him and some mine.
edited: it was go back Plot how to blow up Jews.

Well, I'm glad it was deleted then! And, yes, now I know which one you meant, and it was a mod action.

Sorry but I did not understand that way. "ABC:Nazis or Not?" for a thread about any country is IMHO bad taste.

Absolutely agreed. And if said about a member it would be actionable. If said about a public entity it is only bad taste, and I'd be deeply concerned about the possibility of the supression of minority viewpoints if the mods tried to police that kind of thing.

I perceived that action of going after my country as a way to indirect insulting me because as was defending a position which he didnt agree. A new way to try get personal after have tried to do it in the past and got post deleted.

For example you start a thread about casualties in Israel and at certain point someone who disagree with your point of view then start OT posts trying to find/point something bad about your country that happened many years ago and generalize it. Definitelly this person is targetting you and calling you indirectlly what he cant do directlly.

If he was legimatlly concerned about the past actions of my country he could have started the thread in an independent form.

This is why I referred to it as thread-crapping in my first "let's move on" post in that thread, and proposed possibly moving it to its own thread in the second post. To get it out of that thread. Yet you've taken offense at the proposed thread title to do so, when the proposed thread title was only picked to reflect the content that would have been moved if we got to that point. The question would be, would that thread title have been somehow inaccurate to reflect that content that would have been moved? If it wasn't an inaccurate proposed thread title relative to the actual content, then I'm at a loss as to how moving the content out of there would have been appropriate with no title to give it.

I am not asking more consideration for the country but respect for me. Point one place where I indirectelly started to ofend you as example.
I was for example going to start a thread about how we (all countries) forgot war on drugs and how it is affecting countries, and my as case study.

You've never offended me, pascal, nor did I mean to imply you did. I've certainly never intended to offend you. You, however, are not Brazil, and Brazil is not you. If we get into policing "he's only attacking Brazil to annoy me", then how do we avoid policing "he's only attacking [America, Israel, Lebanon, Iran] to annoy me"?

People should keep on topic as a normal flowing of the conversation as possible.

Of course, hence the proposal to move the content the heck out of there if it was going to keep going.

Close RPSC has its pros and cons. If people were more civil and more fact finding this could be a good point of integration. The only advise I can give is to any moderator is to not participate on the discussions as you could be perceived as partial.

I will stay out of RPSC.

One man's "fact finding" is another man's "rank speculation". Read the 9/11 threads re WTC7 and the Pentagon for proof on that.

Should we have a rule that mods can't participate anywhere? I'm not sure where we'd find mods then.

 

[pascal]

This is probaly a misunderstanding of my part.
Thanks geo and all others.

 

[poopypoo]

This is probaly a misunderstanding of my part.
Thanks geo and all others.

I have to say, pascal, this statement is just another example of your class and rationality. I respect what you have to say, from what I've read so far, and you're right to be offended, when thusly attacked (although being right in a case like this, can still be a waste of your time).

However, I had to post, not to kick a dead horse issue, but to voice my support also for geo's moderation style. if you're going to have a forum such as RPSC, then there needs to be a lack of censorship. Any amount of censorship you can resist allows people not only of different opinions come together, but also of wholly different backgrounds. I think for most of us accustomed to rational debate, we can see issues as potentially distinct from people -- that is, if you cannot divorce an issue from ad hominem attack, then you cannot usually hope to sway a person to your side [and i KNOW i can get riled and make attacks at times!]. However, many people are not comfortable with "rational" debate. They feel strongly, and need a place to vent. I think it's fair to allow them to do this.

In closing, I propose a compromise -- why not have two RPSC forums? I know many will shudder at this, but it seems like a good way to end argument on the subject, to an extent. If you have one RPSC forum with rules, and one, more or less without rules, then nobody can whine if their post is censored or censured in the version with clearly laid out ROE. And I suspect most of the people I want to talk to about these issues will be inclined to use the forum with rules, meaning I can actually go back to investigating threads in (rational) RPSC. People who'd rather shout at each other and call each other diabolical kumquats, can do so, in the other forum!

Admittedly, I'm not entirely sure where I'd fit into this scheme. I can get disgusted with people, and not so much when they call me names (this is too funny), as when they come along and bring zero thought to the table, in other ways. It particularly annoys me when I read a thread that is essentially three or four people repeating the same exact things at each other, with almost no new data, nor even any evidence of having considered their rivals' ideas. If you're not going to consider what each other have to say, then why bother repeating yourselves (take a lesson from David Byrne!)!? After some consideration, I believe that to be the biggest problem with me and the RPSC -- 40 page threads which go basically nowhere. It's a shame, because I know there are some gems in there, but I lack the time. So, i deally, an RPSC with "rules" for me, would really be about limiting brainless discourse -- you can call me names until the cows come home, if you have some good ideas.

 

[London Geezer]

Close it and add the "Buy/sell HW" forum, I'd say.

... Close the whole forum except for the 3D Tech one but add a "Sell/Buy/Exchange Babies" forum. Now THAT is good money, the profit margins are amazing, considering how much it costs to make one...

 

[_xxx_]

... Close the whole forum except for the 3D Tech one but add a "Sell/Buy/Exchange Babies" forum. Now THAT is good money, the profit margins are amazing, considering how much it costs to make one...

So you'd give up on your gayness? I'd be very disappointed!

 

[pascal]

poopypoo,

I dont have as much class or be as much rational as you say but thank you very much for the compliment.
I dont want to kick a dead horse issue too, but just to clarify to you here comes:

The fact is during WW2 my family (father/uncles) had problems here because of the italian origin.
My father business was saved by his friends of be stoned/destructed by the population because of italian name (which was automatically considered facist/nazi).
The entire family then volunter to go to the war. One of them (my uncle) engaged in battle in the Air Force fighting the Nazi and got a medal for this.
After the war three uncles continued in the Air Force and my father went back to business. Eventually he became a freemason and during the next 50 years
he contributed to make a better/more civilized country. There is more but I will stop here. God knows how much I miss them.
The Nazi insulting was an unexpected low level hit on me, like insulting my entire family memory.

I acknowledge that the task of a moderator in the RPSC forum is really challenging.
I am sorry geo was caught in a crossfire.

The RPSC born from the need to "clean" the general forum.
IMHO the ad hominem attack were increasing and that doesnt contribute to the quality of the discussions.
Too much slogans type posts and few insightifull/interesting posts, few consideration to the other posts.
There is a silent majority who rarely participate in the RPSC probably because of the signal/noise ratio.

Unfortunatelly I dont have a solution for this.
Maybe I have but I will not express here. Lets keep this horse dead.

One of my friends is a jewsh Rabin and he says it is time for all people for Teshuva. I agree.