Science Fiction and the downfall of Japanese influence.

[Brimstone]

Kutaragi sites the Matrix as a source of inspiration, while J Allard loves the Neal Stephenson novel Snow Crash and forces all of his staff to read it. Why can't Kutaragi bring up some Japanese manga or better yet a Japanese novel to help convey his vision with others? Movies just aren't the same as sitting down and immersing yourself into a novel. Where are the great Japanese Sci-Fi novelists? I don't put much hope in the results of everyone around Kutaragi watching The Matrix.

What are Japanese corporate executives supposed to draw inspiration from in helping them shape the future? Ghost in the Shell perhaps? Ghost in the Shell tackles some big ideas and explores them, but most other Japanese animation I've watched really hasn't made me wonder and dream.

Of course Japanese video game companies aren't going to fall off the map, but Peter Moore was correct in calling Microsoft the "thought leader". Fueled by J Allard with Snow Crash, and Bungie with Iain M. Banks, Larry Niven, and many more English language based Sci-Fi novelists, Japanese video game leaders are in jeopardy of becoming Sci-Shujin: prisoners to English language based science fiction novels.

 

[PC-Engine]

The only scifi from Japan is Anime with Mechs and weird tenticle creatures and of cours big giant monsters that destory cities.

 

[Carl B]

Wow this is a weird thread, but that said I definitely see Ghost in the Shell as the spiritual precursor to Matrix, and the Wachowsk bros. have stated it as an inspiration when they were going in to do Matrix. Granted, there's a lot of Gnostic philosophy also playing into their films, but just wanted to put that out there.

I don't think Japanese tech companies are on the verge of falling off the map in the least. I do think they are facing increased competition from other Asian countries, but I'm not sure I would describe their present situation as being an absence of vision. Certainly when doing interviews, Kutaragi choosing the Matrix is simply choosing a reference point many more people can relate to.

(PC-Engine, that is obviously not the only sci-fi anime from Japan, I take it you're not a fan of the genre)

 

[Mefisutoferesu]

Someone please lock this thread before I go into ****** mode and tear Brim and PCE a new one for the sheer stupidity of their posts!!

You guys probably couldn't name a Japanese novel to save your lives...crap, it's happening... and you're going to sit their and say the only sci-fi that comes out of Japan is from anime and manga?!?!?! We do smart people turn stupid when it comes to cultures they don't understand!?!


Gah, forgive the post... angry mood... running away now!!!

 

[Titanio]

Joke post?

 

[Powderkeg]

What are Japanese corporate executives supposed to draw inspiration from in helping them shape the future? Ghost in the Shell perhaps? Ghost in the Shell tackles some big ideas and explores them, but most other Japanese animation I've watched really hasn't made me wonder and dream.

It's strange that you say that because Ghost in the Shell is based on a book I just mentioned in another thread.

Ghost in the Shell is inspired by Issac Asimov's collection of stories entitled 'I, Robot.'

Of course, in I, Robot, the term was "ghost in the machine."

 

[Powderkeg]

Wow this is a weird thread, but that said I definitely see Ghost in the Shell as the spiritual precursor to Matrix, and the Wachowsk bros. have stated it as an inspiration when they were going in to do Matrix.

Read this and be amazed...

http://blogcritics.org/archives/2005/03/24/103353.php

So far every attempt the studios has made to ahve the case thrown out has been rejected, and it appears FBI evidence supports the claims.

 

[DemoCoder]

Can anyone even name a recent Japanese sci-fi movie whose narrative doesn't suck-ass? The only Japanese movies I can tolerate are period pieces and Kurosawa films. Their box office non-anime action/sci-fi films suck. Casshern!? Haha, it's not even written as good as a Hollywood box office flop. Final Fantasy the Spirits Within?! These films took the worst elements of Hollywood, overreliance on CGI, at the expense of writing. About the only thing they are doing right is horror genre.

As for Sophia Stewart, I think this women is a con-artist out to shakedown people. Just look at her claims against the Terminator using the same story. Atleast Harlan Ellison had a more legitimate claim.

Ghost in the Shell is not the spiritual precursor to the Matrix, True Names by Vernor Vinge is, or Neuromancer. In fact, in Neuromancer it was even called "The Matrix" -- "mankind's unthinkably complex consensual hallucination, the matrix cyberspace, where the great corporate hotcores burned like neon novas, data so dense you suffered sensory overload if you tried to apprehend more than the merest outline."

Arguably, the Simulacron Three predated everything and was the first "matrix plot"

Maybe the Wachowski Bros are ignorant of the history of science fiction and did not read the classics, but most of the imagery in anime is a very shallow rip-off of the great masters.

 

[Carl B]

Can anyone even name a recent Japanese sci-fi movie whose narrative doesn't suck-ass? The only Japanese movies I can tolerate are period pieces and Kurosawa films. Their box office non-anime action/sci-fi films suck. Casshern!? Haha, it's not even written as good as a Hollywood box office flop. Final Fantasy the Spirits Within?! These films took the worst elements of Hollywood, overreliance on CGI, at the expense of writing. About the only thing they are doing right is horror genre.

DemoCoder, you have successfully named the *worst* examples of Japanese theatre. Certainly I would advise you to expand your horizons.

This entire topic thread though is completely bizzarre. The whole notion is akin to me saying that American obsession with Ninja's and Samurai's, tea ceremonies and geisha's, and the proliferation of sushi and teppanyaki restaurants, is indicative of a 'cultural takeover' of America.

Please people.

Not to mention, if we're honing in on Kutaragi specifically, he also said that Microsoft was like a novice going up against a black belt. Does that reference to Japanese culture thus reverse this Matrix-reference situation, and imply a team inherently in tune with their cultural black-beltness? No, because it's ridiculous. It's ridiculous in either direction.

That's like saying me as an American understanding and appreciating Japanese, Chinese, and European cultures, I've suddenly become devoid of original thought and ungrounded.

 

[rabidrabbit]

Can't really see what does this thread do in the Console Forum, wouldn't this be more at home in the General Discussions.
Companies drawing inspiration from their local science fiction novelists???

I agree good scifi is a great source of mindfood, but this is just absurd.
Maybe it's just good if Kutaragi Ken doesn't read too much scifi, his ideas have often been said in these forums to be a bit too far fetched and unrealistic already
On the other hand, I see little evidence in J. Allards interviews that he's a very original visionary... he comes off as a rather plain corporate type with a "hip" stylist, mainly.

Edit: Oh, so this was in the General Discussions already, hehe

 

[DemoCoder]

DemoCoder, you have successfully named the *worst* examples of Japanese theatre. Certainly I would advise you to expand your horizons.

I didn't say all Japanese theatre sucked, just that Japanese sci-fi sucks. However, I will say that I find the quality of Japanese box office films in general to be low, and I import quite a number of them. Name one good live action sci-fi film that Japan has made in the last 20 years (and no, "The Returner" isn't one of them)

This entire topic thread though is completely bizzarre. The whole notion is akin to me saying that American obsession with Ninja's and Samurai's, tea ceremonies and geisha's, and the proliferation of sushi and teppanyaki restaurants, is indicative of a 'cultural takeover' of America.

I don't have an obsession with any of that stuff. The last "Ninja" movie I cared for was Sho Kosugi films in the 80s when I was a teen. This is also a non-sequitur and has nothing to do with my point that Japanese sci-fi is shallow and derivative, and in general, the movies have poor jumbled narratives that don't even make alot of sense.

That's like saying me as an American understanding and appreciating Japanese, Chinese, and European cultures, I've suddenly become devoid of original thought and ungrounded.

Don't try to claim any high ground. I have ample appreciation for the products of other cultures, but I also recognize the differences. Some cultures produce more numerous higher quality films and books in certain genres. European non-Anglo-Saxon films IMHO generally do a better job with aspects of intimacy, friendship, depression, etc in life. But American and British writers and filmmakers deliver IMHO better, original, science fiction.

I find most anime terrible, silly, poorly written, derivative, etc but ironically, better than live action versions in the same genres in Japan. People go ga-ga over films which I think are only marginally interesting at best. Battle Royale? Provoking idea, but poorly executed in the film. Quite boring IMHO. Beat Takashi and Takashi Miike films? also terrible and way overrated.

Atleast, when you compare their output to Kurosawa, Ozu, or Miyazaki.

In the last two years atleast, the Japanese film industry has produced films at the level of "Weekend at Bernies" or "Deuce Bigalow" or "Bad Boys 2". Where's the Japanese equivalent to Ang Lee (except for The Hulk) in the last 5 years for example?

 

[Carl B]

Democoder only my first sentence was directed directly at you - the rest was in reference to the thread in general.

But indeed if we are talking about Sci-Fi, I would point to Ghost in the Shell, both 1 and 2, and a series like Laine as examples of proper execution. They may not blow your mind - Ghost 1 especially being a little dated at this point - but they are in no way poor.

I'm not here trying to exalt Japanese culture/sci-fi by any means, though I am a fan. I'm simply here to say 'WTF' at the notion that somehow Kutaragi referencing Matrix means a competetive fall-off. I personally think the Japanese have a very futuristic vision of the future in general. It may not be edge-of-your seat like American visions of the future tend to be, but at the same time their's seems that much more readily attainable.

I mean to be honest, everything else aside, theirs is the more 'futuristic' society even now. I see them losing to maybe South Korea, but certainly not the West - anytime soon - in that regard.

By the way I would say Blind Swordsman Zaitoichi and Spirited Away are both excellent and recent 'big' films to come out of Japan, though neither are sci-fi and it's neither here nor there.

 

[CosmoKramer]

...and the Wachowsk bros. have stated it as an inspiration when they were going in to do Matrix.

The Wachowski brothers were taken to court and lost over what was their "inspiration" to Matrix, i e they ripped of the work of a woman (can't remember her name).

 

[Carl B]

The Wachowski brothers were taken to court and lost over what was their "inspiration" to Matrix, i e they ripped of the work of a woman (can't remember her name).

If you read through the thread, I think you'll find post #7 has what you seek.

 

[Squeak]

The Hi no Tori or Phoenix manga is definitely on my top five of greatest SF works ever.

I don't understand all the hoopla around Matrix. I mean it's a decent movie with some good to great special effects, but books and movies such as Tron, The Shockwave Rider and The City and the Stars are of far greater importance. These were seminal works, the Matrix is just one among many others inspired by such prior giant leaps of imagination.

 

[Edge]

but Peter Moore was correct in calling Microsoft the "thought leader".

LOL! I would love to hear some justification for that? What has MS come up with??? They buy studios with talent, and seem incapable of starting their own studio.

Well concerning your original thought, the Japanese are doing what they have always being doing for centuries, and that is copy other cultures. Look at their writing, it's CHINESE characters!

The Japanese have a knack at taking something from an other culture and perfecting it. To think in anyway, this is their downfall, is absurd.

I notice that ever since MS has entered the console market, and has been a huge failure in Japan, and gotten very little Japanese support, Xbox fans seems to offer a lot of opinions, that the Japanese games are boring, not needed, and/or call the Japanese racists, for not buying the Xbox. Enough with cutting down of Japan, and it's great games. You guys would be singing a different tune if the Japanese supported the Xbox.

 

[Brimstone]

I'm not here trying to exalt Japanese culture/sci-fi by any means, though I am a fan. I'm simply here to say 'WTF' at the notion that somehow Kutaragi referencing Matrix means a competetive fall-off. I personally think the Japanese have a very futuristic vision of the future in general. It may not be edge-of-your seat like American visions of the future tend to be, but at the same time their's seems that much more readily attainable.

It just isn't Kutaragi, and thats why this thread was posted in the Console Forum. Take Kojima and the movie Escape from New York which he mentions a lot as a big influence. In his own country did he have a chance to be exposed to Sci-Fi style novels to compliment what he saw from Hollywood cinema and Japanese manga? A Japanese equivilent of a Robert Heinlien, Issac Asimov, or Arthur C. Clarke?

I'm not putting down Kutaragi or Kojima. They're both incredibly talented.

 

[DemoCoder]

Spirited Away was good,but the Beat Takashi version of Zatoichi I think was inferior to the older movies and TV series.

I just think that Japan lacks a director of the calibre of Kurosawa now, or anyone close. While one can point to many many good, and few great American and European directors, hell Chinese and Korean ones, I don't see any good ones worthy of mention coming from Japan these days.