RV560 v R520

Discussion in '3D Hardware, Software & Output Devices' started by Jawed, Dec 20, 2005.

  1. Jawed

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    Let's assume, optimistically, that RV560 is 8-1-3-2 and can support 256-bit memory at the same speeds as R520, as well as clocking in the region of 600MHz+

    Which would provide the best overall gaming experience - playing 2005 games such as FEAR, BF2, AoE3, Q4, SS2 and looking into the near future (but what games?...)

    I ask the question only because I can imagine the two being about the same price when RV560 hits the streets, though R520 would arguably be in short supply...

    Jawed
     
  2. trinibwoy

    trinibwoy Meh
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    I think it's one thing to increase the ratio of shaders to TMU's and another to cut the number of TMU's in half at the same time. Not sure how much the extra z will help but my guess is 16-1-1-1 > 8-1-3-2 in today's games. So X1800XL >> X1700XT.
     
  3. ERK

    ERK
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    Related link.

    http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=28460

    Does 'doubled' count as thoroughly modified?

    ERK
     
  4. ERK

    ERK
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    But on topic,

    When I last compared the performance of X1300 to X1600, the X1600 was about double (at least in the charts I looked at). And if we double the X1600 to 8-1-3-2 then we might get a double-double = four times the performance. Now since X1800 is roughly 4 times X1300, then to first order it seems they would be about the same performance.

    ERK
     
  5. overclocked

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    I think theres some other things to consider also, the biggest probably the memory-controller between the two. Also didnt they change the XT core speed plus that memory speeds are different two, ie 800 vs 1400MHz
     
  6. ERK

    ERK
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    You're right. I'm not sure how much we can say at this point. We need to know the details.
     
  7. Jawed

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    FEAR is supposedly at one extreme of ALU:TEX (very high ratio) and at a guess AoE3 is at the other extreme.

    So theoretically there's a range there, and the ratio is supposedly increasing (though there are so few games on the spring/summer horizon as far as I can tell, it's sorta academic).

    I should have also included CoD2.

    The bottleneck created by X1600XT's 4 texture pipes does appear to dominate practically every benchmark, though.

    How much of X1600XT's texturing bottleneck is down to the cache (is it being thrashed)?

    Would a doubling of the total cache in RV560 make for at least a doubling in performance, or is the likely duplication of some data across both caches going to make the speed-up moot?

    Jawed
     
  8. kemosabe

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    I wouldn't underestimate the possibility of ATI going 8-1-3-2 with faster GDDR3 and sticking to the 128-bit memory bus. They love small dies, and that should provide more than enough performance to fill the $200-250 price point where they are weakest. Where would you price a RV560 that performs on par with R520?
     
    #8 kemosabe, Dec 20, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 20, 2005
  9. overclocked

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    As you say i think there quite more under the hood besides the texture pipes thats been ripped. The concept of RV560 seems to be much more favorable IMO and if they make one of them in AGP i should consider it if the performance is way up but i doubt that they will. Anyway thinking back of all the delays and the initial planing of the R520 i think the part that strikes out is the X1600 with its original pricing also. Seeing how great the R520 is(brilliant enginering) i just think it left a sour taste on my tounge because that beast when planned would really KO nVidia.

    One thing though that i think is strange is why R580 will get this HUGE fragment improvement while we have r600. Actually i think nVidia will be first out with the VISTA part and ATI later because i cant see anything really that would threaten that beast.
    If some parts would be called "future-proof" it would be R580.

    Sorry for going off the topic but my thoughts just wandered away.
     
  10. Tim

    Tim
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    4-1-3-2 >= 8-1-1-1 today, why should 16-1-1-1 > 8-1-3-2?
     
  11. trinibwoy

    trinibwoy Meh
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    Why do you say that? Sure the X1600XT is faster than the X700 PRO but I would bet that the 165Mhz (40%) clock advantage and 60% bandwidth advantage + new memory controller has alot to do with it as well.

    I'm not so sure the X1600XT will look all that great next to a 600Mhz X700. It actually does quite well in some titles - http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/radeon-x1600_7.html although it falls behind more in others - http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/radeon-x1600_3.html.
     
    #11 trinibwoy, Dec 20, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 20, 2005
  12. FrameBuffer

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    particularly in the asian diy market where the x700 (for some reason.. price ? affordability ?) is quite popular, in fact news of higher clocked x700s outfitted with GDDR3 (2ns I thought was mentioned) has many forums in a tizzy,,,..
     
  13. Jawed

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    If RV530 is 160m transistors, what would RV560 be if it's 8-1-3-2? 250m? The size of the ring bus (256 or 512) would surely make a huge difference to the die size.

    Actually, the new memory controller may be the biggest reason for RV560 to stay at 128-bits - presumably the memory controller gets significantly bigger with a doubling in bus size (although its size must also be dependent on the number of pixel pipelines - only 2 in RV560 versus 4 in R520). Hmm...

    With RV530 using fast RAM (700MHz), there isn't much room for faster RAM on RV560 without going to GDDR4... The limit is 900MHz. Admittedly GDDR4 could be due in March.

    Jawed
     
  14. ERK

    ERK
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    OK. I'm not seeing something here. What do you mean falls behind? X1600XT wins all those benches vs X700. The X700PRO comes close for HL2 w/AA/AF. Otherwise its a ~40% lead when not CPU limited.
     
  15. ERK

    ERK
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    I was intrigued by this comment re: AoE3. Why do you think this, Jawed? What benches have you been looking at? I thought the xbitlabs thread (here) surmised a driver issue.

    ERK
     
  16. Jawed

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    I based my guess on FX5900 performing well (equivalent to X700Pro - with the caveat that ATI's driver is off)

    http://www.tomshardware.com/2005/12/02/vga_charts_viii/page7.html

    and presuming that the FX's "preference" for texture-heavy, DX8 style shaders may be relevant. Presumably FX is running the SM2 path.

    FX has two TMUs per shader pipe doesn't it? Is that relevant, or is that just for multi-texturing?

    Total guess about AoE3, of course.

    If you compare 6800U and X1800XL, both seemingly running SM3, then ATI's driver doesn't look broken...

    Jawed
     
  17. trinibwoy

    trinibwoy Meh
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    The "it" in my quote refers to the X700 not the X1600. Apologies for not making that clearer - thought it was obvious that the X700 was the underdog.
     
  18. overclocked

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    It would be quite of an interest if someone could extract the F.E.A.R shaders but i havent seen anyone done that or have i missed something?

    Reg AoE3 are you sure that FX use the same path(?), i have not played the game so i dont know what it uses. Btw with FSAA the NV35 has quite an advantage in memBW compared to X700.
     
  19. chavvdarrr

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    What was the first digit meant for ? ROPs ?
    IMHO RV560 should be 4 ROPs, 8 TMU, 12 PS, 1Z
    What would this be in terms of x-y-z-w ?
    4-2-3-1 ? or 4-1-3-2 ?
    6600 proved there is no point to have 8 rops when chip has 8 TMU and 128-bit bus
     
  20. overclocked

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    As you say i think the difference is that the 6600 have 8 TMUs and that the RV530 should been better balanced with it to.
     
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