RSX: Vertex input limited? *FKATCT

Discussion in 'Consoles' started by Hypx, Dec 26, 2006.

  1. Hypx

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    http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=773344&page=2&pp=30
    http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=774032&page=3&pp=30

    There's this guy named joker454 who claims to be real dev who has experience at work with both the Xbox 360 and the PS3. He clearly knows something about the nature of these two systems as he's pretty competent about them and has not made any obvious errors. However, he also makes some dubious sweeping claims which may mark him as a fake. Unfortunately, my own knowledge of this subject is not nearly enough to judge him, so I'm hoping someone else can look at it themselves. Here are some statements of his that I've find interesting:

    The only thing I can definitely say is wrong is the last quote, since we have a dev (Deano?) who's working on a game that gets around the problem. As for the others, I'm getting a few hints that it may be wrong or it doesn't add up, but I'm not knowledgable enough to definitely put my foot down.

    Mod:
    Just to make sure everyone sees this, there're as of now special rules in this thread to improve the S/N ratio. They can be found here
     
  2. ERP

    ERP Moderator
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    I have no idea if he's a dev, but vertex setup is definitly an issue on RSX, anyone with a 7X00 can run benchmarks and verify the cost of additional attributes.
    To my mind though RSX's bigger performance issue is the shader constant patching, it can be a real performance killer.
    I know of teams using SPU's to try and alleviate the worst of both problems.

    As for the performance comparison, I won't comment beyond the fact that I do know of teams who have found it challenging to get assets built for Xenos running well on PS3.
     
  3. inefficient

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    Et tu Gabe Newell?

    I would bet money that his 12 years in the gaming industry has been as a PC developer. This is very reminicent of when Valve complained about nvidia being hard to work with.

    He is complaining about doing extra work to get performance to match what can be obtained on another vendors hardware. On the PC platform this sort of complaint is reasonable. Identical CPUs identical API, you want your hardware to perform very similarly without vendor specific optimizations. But in the console space... it's naive thinking.

    Complaining about having to pre-cull geometry on the SPU before sending to the GPU... The fact that the Cell is good at that should be listed as a strength, but he cites it as a weakness because he does not want to spend the effort to tap that performance. I guess that is fair if you are working on a low budget project. But even he himself admit that this technique could result in performance that exceeds what is possible on Xenon.
     
  4. nAo

    nAo Nutella Nutellae
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    Different platforms require different care, would not be surprised if ppl working on 360 and suddenly dropping their datasets onto RSX would not observe good numbers (and viceversa)
    Now..I can't see how RSX, if used in the right way, should be so limited at vertex processing: in HS we easily render 2-2.5 MTriangles per frame at 30 fps without being VS limited and without making any use of CELL to speed up vertex shading and I know for sure that being more clever we could even go faster..(just using the GPU)
     
  5. "Nerve-Damage"

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    Even if he or she is a developer, that doesn’t stop them from posting false and inaccurate information. Who’s to say he isn’t jaded by his own personal feeling about Sony or it’s hardware.
     
  6. Acert93

    Acert93 Artist formerly known as Acert93
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    I dunno if he is a developer but he is obviously fairly knowledgable, aware of some of the internal docs, and responds to insults with examples to "prove" his points. And to clarify his own point, which he keeps repeating:

    And his comments are not all negative. He feels Sony's Playstation is still a dominant brand and will seel great. He also points out issues on the MS side, specifically the CPU:

    His own summary seems to be

    That and difficulty tuning his code seem to have him bitter. Now I am sure a number of developers here will disagree with him, especially PS3-specific devs. And he may be a crackpot just mimicking what he hears on places like B3D and is basing a lot of his comments based on benchmarking G70 as well as the widely circulated RSX docs (and maybe access to the PS3 developer forums).

    Or he could be a young developer, junior programmer, etc There are tends of thousands of devs out there, and that one may speak out over the holiday break rushing to get a game out after a long crunch is not unfathomable. I guess it is really up to other multi-platform devs who have gone through what he has, porting an Xbox 360 codebase to the PS3, to really give us an indication if he is full of it and just parroting what Xbox fans think that they think they know or he could be legit -- or legit and biased. Some developers have a bias you know! They are human too. And the bias may be as simple as, "The PS3 makes me work hard... screw that!"

    Interesting thread and his candid, yet calm tone, actually allowed for some real discussion. How accurate it is, I don't think we will known until the PS4/Xbox3 is out :p
     
  7. Acert93

    Acert93 Artist formerly known as Acert93
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    Thanks Marco. I think your first statement is probably the best assessment. While not quite as radical, a developer moving SPE code to Xenon or an x86 chip would probably be in for a world of hurt, especially if it was something significantly parallel (e.g. 4 or 5 SPEs).

    Are we sure we want to do that :???:

    What, are we going to start hunting down ERP, nAo, DeanoC, Faf, Panajav, MrWibble, Fran, Cal, and so forth? So we want to stake out Dave B, geo, Vysex, Hupf, Uttar, and so forth and go through their email and such to make sure their connections are accurate?

    If he is fake his own words will end up nailing him. If he is legit such an open search--just the stuff you brought up--could get him canned.

    People complain all the time that we cannot get insider info--even if it is stressed out frustration--and yet when it disagrees with what we want to hear we try to ruin them. Good way to chase off the devs we have here.

    Sorry, I think the cybersnooping comment should be deleted, but that is just me.
     
  8. -tkf-

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    Isn´t this impossible to do? I mean the two GPU´s are by nature radical different so anything made for one GPU would rarely benefit from the advantages of the others. Or is the RSX really so weak that "common" shader code would run like shit compare to the Xenos?
     
  9. Carl B

    Carl B Friends call me xbd
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    I'm with Acert; do we judge the message or the messenger around here? Whether or not this poster is in the industry... and he certainly seems to be IMO... I think his points should just be deconstucted as any other posters points would be.

    There seems to be this strange mythos on the Internet that if a 'developer' says something, it somehow takes on the force of natural law. But we have many a dev here, do we not? And they disagree on points all the time.

    For me it's as simple as this: he makes a point in terms of the 360 GPU being 'ahead' of the PS3 GPU in several respects. Hey, I think we've had the discussion here enough times to know, yeah in many ways it is. But at the same time he treats the GPU as both the beggining and end of the graphics subsystem, where we know in PS3 the Cell is set to play an ever larger role as tme goes on. And in this regard, he admits to never having touched the SPEs, but acknowledging their power and looking forward to the opportunity.

    Anyway... well I'm an AVS member myself but I've been too emotionally involved there of late to respond in that thread right now; I'm trying to scale back and detach myself from the BD/HD DVD war presently underway there, which is so much more over the top than even any gaming forum you've ever seen.

    But maybe I'll link him to this thread here and he can acquit himself directly among a more appropriate grouping of individuals. Certainly I think some good conversation could arise from it, though again, probably not anything we haven't covered before. :cool:

    @Nerve Damage: After update 3, you are seriously out of control.
     
  10. Acert93

    Acert93 Artist formerly known as Acert93
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    He notes the use of HLSL and the specific issues he has had were vertex related and the use of floating point blending format performance and compatibility with MSAA (i.e. their engine was designed to do HDR with a floating point render target and using a colorspace solution like NOA32 was out of the question at that point in development).

    As nAo and ERP noted, going from one to the other can pose some problems. An example, the assumption has been Xenos has better dynamic branching performance for pixel shaders (due to a smaller batch size), so game code built on the 360 ported over may need to rework this because it may not (or it may!) not run very well "as is" very well. There are examples on both sides of the fence.
     
  11. RobertR1

    RobertR1 Pro
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    You got sucked in soooooo easily!!! Sucker!!! :razz:
     
  12. RobertR1

    RobertR1 Pro
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    Exact stuff I didn't know until about 6months ag. Everyone has to learn at somepoint. Not everyone is born "1337".........A/V is so damn confusing. Trust me, it'll have you hating life quickly......
     
  13. Acert93

    Acert93 Artist formerly known as Acert93
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    We could always use some more devs here, and a multi-platform dev who is looking at issues from the porting process could be valuable representation of the market we don't get much from. We tend to look at things from the absolute extremes/best case scenarios, etc -- because lets be realistic, we all want the best games totally tapping the potential of a platform, and hence with the slew of titles we tend to get really worked up for the cream of the crop -- but the industry strongly relies on the guys doing the grunt work pushing out titles to appeal to a wide audiance. Many of us may loath EA (sorry devs!) but they are a huge part of the industry, and knowing how the next gen consoles impact their development processes is a valuable source of information.

    Of course he could be making things up, in which case it would be a public service to show that, but he seems legit enough.

    But I think a mod should really clean up the witch hunt and certain comments about where the same name has been found on the net. People can find all kinds of interesting things about me on other forums, but posting them here as a personal insult / hunt me down is waaay out of bounds. And if he is a developer he should be made to feel at home and welcome to share, discuss, and debate his point of view, even if it is wrong. :razz:
     
  14. RobertR1

    RobertR1 Pro
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  15. "Nerve-Damage"

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    Done it already. :oops:
     
  16. Acert93

    Acert93 Artist formerly known as Acert93
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    Hahaha I have some of the most stupid posts on the net. It is how you learn. If I don't know something I go somewhere and ask :smile: And I try not to presume to know anything because then people skip stuff you need to know. Heck, 2 years ago I changed the HSF on my NV40 and when I turned my PC on poooof! Big plume of smoke. Oh, and that was after like 4 hours of trying to figure out how to undo some little silly screws... and after cutting a wire I didn't need to cut. You would think I was a total newb, less the fact I have been doing upgrades and mods on PCs for nearly 20 years. And buying my first digital camera (2 years ago), LCD (last year), and MP3 (4 months ago) were experiences full of ignorance, yet most would consider me above average in techn savvy. As I should seeing as I spent 5 years in customer care and management in a small IT company and made almost all our technical purchasing decisions. Some skills and knowledge migrate well, others not so. Btw, I don't own a TV (all gaming is monitor based) so I couldn't tell you the difference between an optical and coax cable... but I could tell you a world of things about a DVI and VGA. I was say the joker guy shows some restraint and qualifies his experience (e.g. little experience in PS3 online and recent updates). Typically an online know it all tries to prove they know everything about anything and really don't know anything about everything!
     
  17. zRifle1z

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    I second that 100%

    This is a new low for this forum IMHO, just a sad attack on some very good information.
     
  18. nAo

    nAo Nutella Nutellae
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    A lot of wrong techinfo, not worth reading.That guy has no idea of what he's talking about
     
  19. inefficient

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    Yikes! Misinformation ahoy! And I only got as far as the 3rd paragraph!

    I don't know whether to laugh or cry...
     
  20. Acert93

    Acert93 Artist formerly known as Acert93
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    Yeah, like the name of the other CPU he was comparing :p And he totally misses the boat by a mile wide and mide deep on backwards compatibility too. And I think that is just common sense IMO. Cell meet Cell2. Happy times. If anyone is going to have a problem it is MS. They had a hard enough time going from a Pentium3 to a PPC and all the associated differences (ISA, endian, general architecture) and that even with the frequency improvements it was/is a mess. Moving to an AMD chip (some sort of fusion? or a lot of K8Ls with some HTT3.0 buses to specialized chips) or to Intel (maybe something derived from their crazy 32 die/128 thread monster) would cause all kinds of issues. First is the threading of the tricore Xenon, but MS could end up in a situation where the CPU cores could be negligably faster, if not slower in some situations, than Xenon. If the "power race" is in many more cores, emulation could be a problem.

    Conversely, the problems some may be having with Cell now will pay off with Cell2. People will have 5-6 years experience, robust librarys, and solid middleware to hit the ground running. For your parallelized code that performs nearly linear with additional SPEs you now could have an additional 20-50 SPEs to toss at the problem. Sony's strength may not be software, but they have created a bonafide platform with Cell. I expect 1st gen PS4 games to hit the road running, and running fast--as well as good BC to boot!
     
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