Rein mouths off again, the usual

[Rangers]

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=11102

Claims 12 1/2 hours length for Gears instead of 10.

Oh yeah my bad on thread location..I got confused and forgot about console talk being the generic place.
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WEB SHOWS

 

[Carl B]

I don't understand what he said that people are upset about frankly.

Besides making a hilarious 'next-gen starts when we say it does' joke and referencing Epic's efforts to reach maximum efficiency in their UE3 port to the PS3, what's the drama?

I also am not sure this belongs in the 'technology' section of the forum, unless there's a specific point of engine implementation we're to discuss here. But if that's the case, the original post doesn't make that clear...

 

[AlNom]

this was already posted in the latest gears thread in the games section. ...and I agree, there's nothing really special about his comments.

 

[SenatorMonkey]

The point he made that has riles up me and my developer friends is actually his boasting that GoW has only cost $10M to develop, with 20-30 people. There's no way that they are counting engine development and marketing into that number, and I understand from some people that a lot of the artwork is outsourced to another studio for GoW, so it's possible that his number doesn't even include that work. When you take UE3 development into account (especially considering that they've neglected the 'middleware' version of the engine for a while in favour of getting more work done on GoW), and the ongoing and upcoming marketing blitzes, GoW will be a $30M or more game to get to shelves. This is in line with other UE3 projects that friends are working on (though obviously it's possible that they'd be even more expensive without UE3).

The Unreal Engine isn't some magic bullet. It has a pretty nice toolset for artists, it has some pretty sloppy code, and ultimately, when you license it for $1M or whatever deal you can get, you'll have to devote probably another $1M+ just to get it in line with what your game wants it to do.

And now I've noticed that I've ranted a bit less lucidly than I had hoped for

 

[Platon]

The point he made that has riles up me and my developer friends is actually his boasting that GoW has only cost $10M to develop, with 20-30 people. There's no way that they are counting engine development and marketing into that number, and I understand from some people that a lot of the artwork is outsourced to another studio for GoW, so it's possible that his number doesn't even include that work. When you take UE3 development into account (especially considering that they've neglected the 'middleware' version of the engine for a while in favour of getting more work done on GoW), and the ongoing and upcoming marketing blitzes, GoW will be a $30M or more game to get to shelves. This is in line with other UE3 projects that friends are working on (though obviously it's possible that they'd be even more expensive without UE3).

The Unreal Engine isn't some magic bullet. It has a pretty nice toolset for artists, it has some pretty sloppy code, and ultimately, when you license it for $1M or whatever deal you can get, you'll have to devote probably another $1M+ just to get it in line with what your game wants it to do.

And now I've noticed that I've ranted a bit less lucidly than I had hoped for

No doubt, te numebrs they are refering to are maybe so to say "idealized", but I can see them not counting in the engine dev cost but still I don't see that being too faulty, as that is their whole point. By using their engine your are saving all the engine development costs, therefore they show you how much GOW would costs without he engine development...

 

[Sis]

The point he made that has riles up me and my developer friends is actually his boasting that GoW has only cost $10M to develop, with 20-30 people. There's no way that they are counting engine development and marketing into that number, and I understand from some people that a lot of the artwork is outsourced to another studio for GoW, so it's possible that his number doesn't even include that work. When you take UE3 development into account (especially considering that they've neglected the 'middleware' version of the engine for a while in favour of getting more work done on GoW), and the ongoing and upcoming marketing blitzes, GoW will be a $30M or more game to get to shelves. This is in line with other UE3 projects that friends are working on (though obviously it's possible that they'd be even more expensive without UE3).

The Unreal Engine isn't some magic bullet. It has a pretty nice toolset for artists, it has some pretty sloppy code, and ultimately, when you license it for $1M or whatever deal you can get, you'll have to devote probably another $1M+ just to get it in line with what your game wants it to do.

And now I've noticed that I've ranted a bit less lucidly than I had hoped for

Is marketing ever counted in that number? And you're saying that the number is off by $20 million, so the outsourced artwork and engine work adds $20 million?

When a game reaches $30 million dollar budget, is it realistic to expect it ever to make money? Assuming a $10 dollar cut on every game (a little high?), they'd need to sell 3 million just to break even.

I can see it for some situations (a first party title, for example, or one with certain built-in fan base). But man, if many games really are costing $30 million to make, I can only imagine the effects on the market this would have...

 

[Laa-Yosh]

The point he made that has riles up me and my developer friends is actually his boasting that GoW has only cost $10M to develop, with 20-30 people.

Yeah, 30 people can't build a nextgen game, even with only 10-12 hours of gameplay.
Look at id and Doom3, they've spent about 4 years on that one because of the content, and they're about 20-30 people, and it has nowhere near the amount of GOW's art in it.

And 10 million, by the way, is quite a lot...

 

[Powderkeg]

Is marketing ever counted in that number? And you're saying that the number is off by $20 million, so the outsourced artwork and engine work adds $20 million?

When a game reaches $30 million dollar budget, is it realistic to expect it ever to make money? Assuming a $10 dollar cut on every game (a little high?), they'd need to sell 3 million just to break even.

I can see it for some situations (a first party title, for example, or one with certain built-in fan base). But man, if many games really are costing $30 million to make, I can only imagine the effects on the market this would have...

Yeah, they might have to do something drastic, like increase game prices or something.




I don't doubt that the $10 million is for content only, and does not include the game engine development, but I wouldn't add the full cost of game engine development to GOW specifically when they have another Epic game in the works and a whole truckload of 3rd party developers paying them to use the same engine. Likewise any "outsourced" content that they may have obtained was almost certainly done by their new Chinese location and not external developers.

My guesstimate would be closer to around $15-20 million for GOW, which they will definitely make back, and then some.

 

[AlNom]

Guys guys... stop Reining on his parade!

...ok stupid joke har har.


Completely agree with you on this Powderkeg. It would be difficult to factor in the engine development costs, which they've probably made back more than enough money from licensing already (even considering tech support and continued development).

 

[Avon_Implosion]

funny thing is that he issued an apology to Sony on one of their major forums (epics) a few hours afterward. :/

 

[Guden Oden]

Apology for saying what, exactly?

Seriously, I never listen to what epic says. They're kings of talking trash.

 

[fulcizombie]

I don't understand what he said that people are upset about frankly.

Besides making a hilarious 'next-gen starts when we say it does' joke and referencing Epic's efforts to reach maximum efficiency in their UE3 port to the PS3, what's the drama?

I also am not sure this belongs in the 'technology' section of the forum, unless there's a specific point of engine implementation we're to discuss here. But if that's the case, the original post doesn't make that clear...

The drama is that his company is making the flagship xbox360 title for this holiday season that has the misfortune to be the best looking videogame of 2006.

That's the drama for many people in this forum(and not only in this forum.....)

 

[Nesh]

Apology for saying what, exactly?

Seriously, I never listen to what epic says. They're kings of talking trash.

But why?

 

[Avon_Implosion]

Apology for saying what, exactly?

Seriously, I never listen to what epic says. They're kings of talking trash.

calling Bullshit on Sony's claim that the next gen starts with the PS3, and saying that Gears is legions ahead of any PS3 launch title.

 

[Carl B]

calling Bullshit on Sony's claim that the next gen starts with the PS3, and saying that Gears is legions ahead of any PS3 launch title.

Uh, he didn't do either of those things though. Rather, he said that 'next gen starts when he says so' (a joke) and said that Unreal 3 was running better on 360 than on PS3 at the moment.

I think both sides need to game perspective on Rein's quite mild - yet twisted by Gamasutra - everyday comments.

 

[Bobbler]

Uh, he didn't do either of those things though. Rather, he said that 'next gen starts when he says so' (a joke) and said that Unreal 3 was running better on 360 than on PS3 at the moment.

I think both sides need to game perspective on Rein's quite mild - yet twisted by Gamasutra - everyday comments.

It happens quite often to top execs at game companies. Kutaragi and Allard/Moore used to get it all the time -- harmless comments (that are either misinterpreted or in jest) are taken to extremes on the internet.

Nothing of interest was really said by Rein, and if a person heard those statements in person, they likely wouldn't have even made much note of it outside of a chuckle.

I'm beginning to think the internet is powered by drama -- if there was none the internet might just blink out of existance.

 

[HeBeHu]

Yeah, 30 people can't build a nextgen game, even with only 10-12 hours of gameplay.
Look at id and Doom3, they've spent about 4 years on that one because of the content, and they're about 20-30 people, and it has nowhere near the amount of GOW's art in it.

And 10 million, by the way, is quite a lot...

Remedy Entertainment is about 30 people in size. And I guess we both agree Alan Wake can be labelled as a a 'nextgen game'?

In a Finnish games mag there's a few page article about Alan Wake and Remedy Entertainment. In the article Saku Lehtinen, Remedy's AD, states that staying small is a conscious choice on their behalf. He sees smaller teams a lot innovative and flexible than, say a team of 200 people. It's impossible to have a sensible conversation in a team that big.

The reason they can stay so small is that they outsource everything they can. As an example he mentions 3D-models of cars and characters. It's just how well you manage and supervise your outsourcings. Engine couldn't be outsourced, since they couldn't find a suitable one for their needs so they had to build it from a scratch.

There's also some never before seen pictures in the article. Nothing groundbreaking tho'.

 

[Avon_Implosion]

Uh, he didn't do either of those things though. Rather, he said that 'next gen starts when he says so' (a joke) and said that Unreal 3 was running better on 360 than on PS3 at the moment.

I think both sides need to game perspective on Rein's quite mild - yet twisted by Gamasutra - everyday comments.

i'm just reporting what I saw, and what he said

 

[Avon_Implosion]

Uh, he didn't do either of those things though. Rather, he said that 'next gen starts when he says so' (a joke) and said that Unreal 3 was running better on 360 than on PS3 at the moment.

I think both sides need to game perspective on Rein's quite mild - yet twisted by Gamasutra - everyday comments.

edit: double post, my bad

 

[Powderkeg]

I think this guy is far more entertaining than Rein.

What would you say to consumers who like Sony and want to buy your products, but perhaps feel that because they're in Europe they're always last in line?

European consumers have shown that historically they don't mind that, because they end up buying as many PlayStations, if not more, than the US and Japan. In Europe, it doesn't seem that the release of our platforms after the US and Japan - in the long run - affects how consumers feel.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=20189

Nice to know that Europeans don't mind delays and getting games and systems last.