Regards Multiplatform Development/Comparison and Neverending Scaling Discussions.

Generally in the tech threads we should be less tolerant, both of derailment fan-talk and responses. If the rest of the board could happily ignore the noise until we got around to removing it, we'd have a lot less work to do, but sadly there are still people who just don't get that 'walk away' is the best option.

The resolution thread should stay. It's a valuable reference point. I'm not sure about the merit of multiplatform discussion at the moment. Everything has been said, so that Ithink we understand as much as we ever will until NDA's are lifted. One of the problems is newbies joining who don't review the previous discussion, and we keep cycling the discussion as the devs get yet another hard time. A technical analysis of cross-platform titles makes sense according to our mandate, but to me that'd be integrated into the 'Resolution' thread, which by its nature is going to have comparisons of games across platforms. Either we have one thread that discusses the technical aspects of titles including comparisons of cross-platform titles, which'll cover resolution, texturing, filtering etc., or we have a resolution specific thread. Otherwise how can we categorise which talk ends up in which thread, when there is always a fair bit of crossover?

I think we'd be best served with a HardCore 'Rendering Technology/Techniques' thread that covers all aspects of framerate, resolution etc. and with zero tolerance on discussion about the why's and wherefore's - a pure analysis and results thread as a data source - and a second thread to discuss the issues raised, as to why one platform chose one technique over another, that references the Analysis thread as needed.

With my mod hat firmly on, I say we shouldn't kindly transfer over discussion from the analysis thread to the discussion thread. That has to remain the forum users responsibility to keep discussion where it should be. I know the nature of discussion forums is to hit the reply button when a thought enters your head, and it'd take a bit of getting used to instead find another thread and post your ideas there with a link to the analysis thread, but the alternative is untenable. I hope it wouldn't take too long before the general population came to understand the differences and posted accordingly.

If we do that, which we might not, as these are just my current suggestions!

 

You can just edit your official remarks into the top of the first post you split off, making it big, bold and blue to distinguish from the post's content.

 

Alstrong, I've some ideas about how to keep the forum more even but I need to know how far your "mod super powers" go

Basically most of my points resume on a tougher policy on the console board. I'm well aware that the key point is to keep moderators task at a reasonable level. So my question is it possible for you to block an user temporarilly or permanently on a board or a thread? If no, I think the moderators team should consider it as it would be a powerful and convinient tool.


### Here are some random and general points.

* The "non Vs" rules is useless and already somewhat enforced in some topics. There is a need for something more fine tuned (for greater good for both users and mods).

* Forum overall structure:
-general forum
-business forum
-tech forum
-game forum

* Each of these boards should have specific policies applied.

* Within these boards some "critical" threads should have extra policies applied.


### How it could look in regard to contents and policies within theses sections.

## The General Forum:

*** The content: mostly unchanged but cut in some ways (see busyness and tech sections).

*** the policies: usual pruning.


## The Tech Forum

*** The content:

* The usual content + technical discussion per game!
I think that we won't save the "multiplaform etc." thingy. Bunchs of points have already been discussed/made both on the technical and the economic sides of things. The problem is the noise,informations are lost in the noise. Between as a general topic he attract more "trolls" than a game specific one. At least with tiner topic information will be less diluted and focus. Polemic talk should be suffered as long as there is back up (screens, poster knowledge,etc.) otherwize mercyless blocking... Idiotic comments as "I prefer game that stuter to blabla and other weird statments about IQ" should suffer the same fate I still amazed that this obvious stealth trolling is tolerated here.

* No hardware comparaison for the obvious reasons that systems strenghts and weekness are well known even by now. Discussing further won't go anywhere.

* No comparision between exclusive games

* "Frame rate analysis" thread should not exist. Better would be include in game specific threads (a "post-it" as for the neverending should be a good idea as reference).

*** The policies: heavy!

* New threads would have to be mods approuved first.

* Unwanted posts (and so responses) would be deleted without notice.

* Responsible of the afforementioned talk would be blocked temporarilly on the thread

* Whining => Block temporarilly on the sub section (for cooldown effect).

*"neverending etc" thread specific policies: anything else than proper estimate or question coming along with proper screenshot would be deleted and user blocked.

* Devs blaming => block/delete
* overall show no mercy even to well known members nobody will die from some days without being able to post on a thread or a board.


## The Business Forum

** The content:

* sales / earning reports / strategies / predictions / etc.

** The policies: average

* New threads would have to be mods approuved first

* Unwanted posts (and so responses) would be deleted without notice.

* Responsible of the afforementioned talk would be blocked temporarilly on the thread

* Whining => Block temporarilly on the sub section (for cooldown effect).


* overall show few mercy even to well known members nobody will die from some days without being able to post on a thread or a board.

## The Game Forum

*** The content: pre realease // beta // users opinions // advices

*** the policies: should be relaxed

* notable exception, derailing comparisions (usual they are obvious) and technical talk about games (should be covered esewhere).


###even with all of these policies applied derailing will happen, see the prelude the mods need better tools the "M0dH@t +30" no longer cut it...
Block user temporary without thinking twice about fairness, no body will die from not being able to post on a thread for one or three days for example.

 

Shifty I completely agree that the tech section is the most critical as comments from there can be used elswhere than B3D.

I'm somewhat unsure about the "frame rate analysis etc." thread but honestly granmaster is the only capable to provide datas, and games for which topic are already likely to be opened.

 

That's just not gonna happen (that's the separation of whys from whats).

 

If it's just BS or if you don't care about what other ppl think, just buy a game.

You can post your opinion in game thread. There's nothing technical about "it looks good on my TV".

This thread is supposed to help in fixing stuff. Complaining about how other people are biased and unfair has nothing to do with this thread.

---

One more suggestion related to the previous ones. I find it counterproductive when people post how something is "better" or "best" without providing metrics. There's a difference in saying "there's a subtle color bleeding caused by the AO that makes the light model more realistic, check out in the lower left corner of this hi-res pic" and "lighting is much better in SKU ABC".

It looks like it requires code change:
http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=156141

I know it's up to administrators, but this would help a lot IMO.

How about simple rule in every technical thread: Derailment? Fanboyism? Non-technical? Offtopic? Don't answer, press REPORT button.
This will lead to some reports which mods may find overactive. I think that in that case there should be some sort of feedback to the person reporting, preferably mod reponding to the post that was reported, establishing it as "ok to stay". I know this is yet again more work for you.

 

While I agree wit the fact that some threads/board have to be kept clean, I think that another attempt to keep to much "mess" under control will lend to the same result as now stealth trolling/fanboy talk.

I'm kind of sad that nobody answer my post coz I spend some time on it, this let my think that the blocking option (which would be a good way to educate imho people who really want to learn stuffs here and are open minded enough) would need a major rework of the whole site.
Anyway I still think that it would be worse it.

For the specific thread Alstrong mentioned blocking or not I still think that my suggestion are good.
For the "frame rate one" if game specific discussions don't happen I don't know how to handle it without an extra effort from you mods. Basically Granmaster is the only one in situation to represent facts and some armchairs experts and devs can help him to progress in how interpret some results but without restricting access (to some members or through bloking) it won't change... Or you will have more work (as Mods I mean).

Is blocking that tough to implement?

 

@liolio
I read your ideas and first thing that comes to mind is this question: do you suggest to change forum layout or do you suggest to clearly apply one of the proposed sets of policies to existing sections?

"The Tech Forum": I like it, especially moving some of the opinion-related stuff to the game threads and no vs. between exclusives.

"The Business Forum": I think rules should be stricter. Common "sins" when it comes to business talks are (A) bugs cost more (in terms of sales) than fixing them and delaying the game (B) more is better a.k.a. mine is longer than yours (C) kids online have better insight into business than people running companies (D) majority of gamers are hardcore and whatever opinion is popular online/promoted by magazines becomes absolute. These constitute for pretty much half of the arguments made in "business" discussions.

One more thing I believe is pretty important. I for one am tired of claims based on games that hasn't been released yet (e.g. talking about technology based on bullshots 6+ months before the release) and drawing conclusions from differences in games released more than 6 months apart. I hope that the reason why is obvious, if it's not I'll be happy to elaborate.

 

I think that both a layout change and new policies applied to existing sub forum would be interesting.
The former is not a priority in my opinion. But I really think that would better come together.
After all there is no emergency and we can take time to discuss every possible.

But now the situation is not good, look FO3 thread in the games section and the "game tech" in tech section, the talk overlap. The Mods have a huge work to keep things clean, too huge.
On the other side the "game tech" is becoming a FO3 threads, what will it be in one more week? The purpose is lost it can't be a synthetic thread informations are lost.
Per game thread is the way to go, it will help keeping the game section clear.

For the business section I thank about it again and you might be right.
Between I think some threads should be kept clear:
earning report // sales in general
there could be a earning report thread per brand, mostly updated with raw datas, the same for "npd/Japan sales"
The point is to keep the datas (and value of the site) unaltered and clear.
There could discussions about trends and prediction to let members share their opinions but not compromize the informations.

For your last statment I tend to agree but the forum would be dead if people can't express themselves, we have to bear it. I would go further and that after forum rebirth the moderation was pretty heavy and people went even further to make personal preference looks like acceptable argument. There is nothing wrong with personal opinions and preferences (even if based on thin air) but people have relearn to state them simply.
"I think that "X" games will have a huge impact" should not turn into a thirty line post.
On the other side, people have to accept it "like it's your opinion/prediction I respect but disagree time will tell in the end" or not ignore but let the statement as it is because there is not that much to add. Discussions like these can take pages here.
One have to express themselves clearer others have to drop the ball if the opinion/prediction is not that disputable. Here is the job of the mods:
"like there is nothing wrong with your opinion/prediction per SE but don't turn it into an factual argument". (same is true for the persons answering).
If it goes further user(s) locked some days for cool down.
My point is not to restrict freedom of talk more to force respect of opinions.
If opinions were respected properly I think some users wouldn't go that far to make their point as there would be no adversity.

I'll be back in the real in some minutes excuse me... I hope landing won't be to tough...

 

It is possible AFAIK to block users from subforums. Bans on the Tech Forum for people not talking tech would send a strong message that would weed out the riff-raff, and should be doable. I think the business side is generally well catered for in the general discussion. The real difficulty comes in balancing mandates with open discussion, and allowing some organic progression of discussion yet maintaining logical structure so info can be found at a later date. The Tech Forum has this clear distinction. The Game forum likewise is focussed on gameplay. Everything else fits acceptibly in the general console forum IMO, with most subjective opinions becoming business speak and back again. That seems inevitable to me. After all, if you're talking about games being good or bad without talking about them in the game threads, you must be talking from a platform persective which leads to talk about which platform suits which people best (or 'which is better' in the common tongue )

To be fair, a lot of the established members are good at having their disagreements and moving on. The majority of derailment seems to come from new blood.

 

The new blood actually tends to degrade the conduct of the older members also.

 

Like this?:

http://forums.ps2dev.org/viewforum.php?f=16&sid=0c7e7f7473e57c2069798aa559cf4bdd

I've always liked that feature on the ps2dev forums

 

Yes, please! This is an awesome feature.

 

This post is in two parts

About the multiplatform development thread; I think that the segmentation into smaller scope threads is a good idea. Simply because it's much harder for the fan persons with a mission to prove they have mental issues to get sneaky on a limited scope thread than it is in an "open" comparison thread.

The new threads will just require a first post with a large amount of warnings, in plain English, to set things right from the start.

About the hall of shame; we chose, long time ago, to always take the high road with moderation issues. Not that the moderation team has something against mocking idiotic posts. It's defintely not that, as the people who know some us in real life, on IRC/IM or even from our posts in the more light hearted forums of B3D. It's just that we prefer to keep B3D's official communication to remain as bloody serious as it possibly could be.

We have joke character accounts for the rest. ...Just kidding!

Spoiler

Or am I?

About adding more sub forums; while the idea make sense on the paper, it's a matter of public record that people tend not to visit all the boards of a forum. So, adding more subforum would only condemn some subject to never get the light they might deserve.

I think that the current repartion is fine. A general forum (Console Forum, or the CF for its friends) for the marketing and business talk. A gaming forum for the, well, console gaming talk. And a technical forum for the serious technology related talk.

 

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1237222&postcount=307

Read onwards. This is pretty much the new crop in a nutshell. I think the attention that B3D has been getting from other forums (mainly due to the resolution thread) is a big cause of what we're seeing/discussing.

 

I love the no-nonsense explanations heading the threads! Will make moderation a doddle... What exactly is the structure we have now? I understand 'Image Quality and Framebuffer Discussion' to be all technical details, in which case should the existing *Game Tech* thread be locked up? Or what will that thread cover not in the official threads? Also should the title be changed from 'Discussion' to 'Analysis' to highlight the key difference with other threads? To me the idea of Discussion opens the thread up to talk about the observations, rather than talk making observations.

 

Can someone please confirm the state of the *game tech* and *frame rate anaylsis* threads? They're full of dross yet no-one is switching over to the new threads. I'm willing and ready to sort things out just as long as I know I'm following the same game-plan as everyone else.