Regards Multiplatform Development/Comparison and Neverending Scaling Discussions.

Discussion in 'Site Feedback' started by TheAlSpark, Nov 5, 2008.

  1. TheAlSpark

    TheAlSpark Moderator
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    First of all: I think both threads need a reboot. There is so much clutter and confusion about what is appropriate.

    The Multiplatform Development thread was about the difficulties developers were encountering and at some point became a topic for multiplatform comparisons as a merge/spin-off from the Neverending Upscaling Thread, which itself was meant only for examining game resolutions and not for making comparisons.

    People are quick to opine their views on what is better or worse, also mixing in their preferences for blur or softness or art or colour or whatever they fancy in the game on their platform of choice, inciting more people to come defend their view of the situation because they believe the others to be wrong. As a tech forum, I find it degrades the discussion.

    So... just a some thoughts to throw out here:

    1) Neverending Rendering Resolution Thread Part Quatre - strictly Q&A& Discussion e.g. game or game demo is out, what is the resolution? No nonsense about what is the resolution of PR screenshots or for games that are far away from release (Please, deal with the insecurity!). May include comments on rendering techniques or solutions/constraints/hardware limitations (bandwidth, memory, shader power etc). Nothing on personal preferences.

    2) Games on Multiple Platforms - Other Technical Differences (Besides Rendering Resolution) - different texture/shadow filtering methods, texture resolution, frame rate analyses WITH details on events, absence/presence of technical abnormalities (be it geometry LOD, reversed normals, or triple specular shielding or other). But again, nothing on personal preferences.

    3) The Nature of Multiplatform Development (to replace the original) - Covers economics, tools, experience on platforms (ShootMyMonkey, joker, TB et al. :!:) , or other company issues. What is really troubling are the folks who go the path of "easier said than done" or "exclusive game can do it, why can't they?"


    Thoughts?

    The replacement multiplatform thread seems a bit dead in the water in general considering how much was left to discuss. A severe pruning and retro-fitting of the original would not be feasible IMO. A lot of what was said by developers in the thread are rather definitive generalities on multiplatform development realities, and rehashing would be... rehashing. I'm not sure if there is much interest left in the community.
     
  2. zawarudo

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    Well, duh, you have to be clear about whether you want direct COMPARISONS at all in any of these threads or not. That's mainly what's screwing them up so badly.

    Do you or don't you?
     
  3. TheAlSpark

    TheAlSpark Moderator
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    We actually describe the goals early on, but people kind of gloss over them or miss them... Particularly the new people. At any particular Big Pruning Event, there is also a reminder about the topic, and things also tend to get lost in the hundreds and hundreds of posts.

    For instance have you read over all the previous threads? ;)
     
  4. PARANOiA

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    I think we need the middle thread to be a "Multiplatform technical discussion thread" in the tech forum, only to discuss the why's and how's of things. This would be the non-resolution sister to the resolution thread. This would be the home for Joker, NAO, etc. Non-measurable talk should be banned/deleted with a warning (eg, "x > y" is not wanted, but we'd like to see "the bump mapping is missing from x version but present on y version").

    You'll always have the "other" talk, but keep it out of the specific thread. At least you'll have a home for all the newbie rot that creeps onto the site from time to time.
     
  5. betan

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    I think we definitely need a dedicated thread for quantitative analysis/comparison with no tolerance for personal preferences. Otherwise fanboyism fueled discussions will continue to pop up in a lot of threads.

    I'm also in favour of pruning and reopening current multiplatform development thread because it was a pretty good one before someone moved comparison posts from neverending upscaling thread. ;)

    As for resolution and framerate threads, they may well be unified with quantitative comparison thread under a suitable thread title.
     
  6. eastmen

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    You have to be careful the fallout portion of that thread is another case in point. The portions shown favored the ps3 but there are other parts of the game (specificly outside with lod changes) that would favor the 360. I think if your going to allow direct comparisons we need alot of diffrent comparisons even ones that show no changes at all within a game. Otherwise they will just be skewed to what hte original poster wants to show us and his / her biases
     
  7. TheAlSpark

    TheAlSpark Moderator
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    Hindsight is 20/20, but yeah, I should have created a new thread instead at the very beginning (last year?). :oops: Saving the old thread will certainly take a while, but now's a good a time as any to start anew; defining the new threads will at least make picking/choosing/splitting posts in the old thread clearer...
     
  8. Arwin

    Arwin Now Officially a Top 10 Poster
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    I'm fine with the new threads. Post links to the old ones in the ops, and that should do the trick. A thread purely on direct comparisons could draw away a lot of the ugly, but could also attract ugly in itself. But it would help keep things in focus.
     
  9. Dominik D

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    My $0.02 for what it's worth.

    1) All technical threads should be focusing on technology, not tastes. Discussions with "IMO", "I don't care about", "I care about X so it's important" should be penalized.

    2) Stealth trolls with unsubstantiated claims ("X sold Y units more on platform Z", "by looking at screenshots of Q it's obvious that R") should be penalized. There are game-related threads where people can talk about their tastes, likes and dislikes.

    3) Multiplatform threads should be multiplatform all the time. Any mention of exclusive title should be penalized.

    4) Guesswork should be forbidden unless it's followed by reasoning that is based on technical data and not guesses, hopes, PR.

    5) Comparisons should be about pointing out the obvious and not explaining preferences. It is ok to say "SKU X has normal maps, SKU Y has bump maps as seen on these two high resolution screens". It's not ok to say "SKU X has normal maps, SKU Y has bump maps but technique ABC looks better on my TV".

    Neverending Rendering Resolution Thread: posts revolving around "it looks full-HD too me" or "I like 2AA more than quincunx" should be penalized.

    Games on Multiple Platforms - Other Technical Differences: should be based only on technical, substantiated data.

    The Nature of Multiplatform Development: I like the fact it explicitly includes economics. But once again it should be based on real data and real experience. Reading threads on B3D is _not_ experience.

    I would also strongly suggest the following thread:

    Development Q&A: thread where people can ask questions about programming paradigms and how hardware affects methodologies. I would strongly encourage banning any type of comparisons in the thread. Questions formed as "X vs. Y" should be forbidden. Most of them would be PS3 vs. 360 anyway and those belong to "Games on Multiple Platforms - OTD".

    The alternative would be to have separate "PS3 development" and "360 development" threads.

    Also It would be awesome if the first post in thread was visible at the top of every page. I don't know if there's a built-in feature like that (I believe there is but there's mod for sure).

    I know that moderating is painful. I know that iron-fist-moderation is time consuming. I appreciate the fact you guys devote your time to make this place better. But at the same time I think that either moderation became more loose or zombies attacked this place. :/
     
  10. betan

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    eastmen, the point of a potential comparison thread should not be about which version is better, but which version does what differently.

    I agree
     
  11. MazingerDUDE

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    I'm really suprised to see how some people in this forum just can't tollerate having better 'anything' on the PS3. Talk about the bias. I even feel like getting a capture board, starting a comparison site myself that provides something that's strictly facts, not some opinions. I lost credibility on many of the people here. It's really sad.
     
  12. TheAlSpark

    TheAlSpark Moderator
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    Well, it does help if you have a quality source of captures to prove your point. Emphasizing superiority instead of looking at the technical aspect without judgments does not help. After your string of photographs, I don't see any posts that deny the improvements?

    The discussion turned into a personal preference fling, which is what I am trying to avoid the next time. The problem will always remain with new users who "registered to post opinion on subject".

    Providing blurry, compressed captures from a compressed video (e.g. IGN Fallout stuff, not targeting anyone in particular here) wasn't the best way to get a point across. Furthermore, the fact that the lighting was different for each platform made the comparison dubious at best. I'm sure most of us realize that, hence the skepticism that you then saw. Also, there are folks without technical knowledge to begin with and they certainly see things differently.

    Other's claims of bugs and what not should also be backed up too.

    edit: I'm not seeing anyone denying flat out things being better on PS3. :???:
     
  13. TheAlSpark

    TheAlSpark Moderator
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    And Mazinger, thaniks for going OT in this thread. ;) You see how easy it is? Calling out bias is also something you don't want to do too. People go on the defensive and then you've got another thread gone to hell. It's happened plenty of times before. Some people just need to let their suspicions to themselves and move on with the discussion in a logical manner.
     
  14. Squilliam

    Squilliam Beyond3d isn't defined yet
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    What about making it the quantitative thread? Since we have the good work from Grandmaster available to use and frame-rate relates directly to the allowances you've suggested like bandwidth and shader power etc it seems to fit right in. So it makes sense to me to have one specific thread which deals directly with measurable frame-rate,resolution and anti-aliasing.

    Since I propose removing the frame-rate analysis, would it make sense also to give this thread an identity of its own to discuss the hardware as it relates to the outcomes produced by the software stack?

    Looks good, but why not call it simply "The nature of development"? Not all games are multiplatform and not all issues are multiplatform either.
     
  15. MazingerDUDE

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    I seek only the truth, nothing more. And that's what lead me to this forum to begin with. I have many people around me canceling their preorders, when the report on PS3 crap port came out. It was a day one purchase for me too, but this news held me back too (I do have both PS3 and the 360, but having been RRODed once already I'm trying to keep useage of my 360 to minimal)

    So, the facts about these multi plaform games are very important to me. Why? You know why. Paying same money for a crap port on a more expensive console is just crap. I don't care what these devs cry about, I'm the consumer and I'm the one paying the money here, and there're plenty of multi platform games that runs just as good on the PS3.

    I had respect on many of the people here making their points on technical level, but those same people suddenly change their behavior when something they thought that would never ever happen actually happened. Better textures on the PS3 version OMG

    When I posted those shots, I was expecting discussions on a technical level. How could've this happened etc. Or maybe some talk on how unreliable those professional gaming journalists' opinions are.

    Instead, I was getting something like

    A: it's just a bug

    B: PS3's got crap shadow

    C: having AA is better than better textures

    D: those are poor quality cam shots, worthless

    (yeah right and I spent hours taking those crappy photos last night with Resistance 2 sitting next to me unopened)

    It's not like I was saying the PS3 version is better overall than the 360 or anything.

    I was just pointing out that there are parts better in the PS3 which no one seemed to have noticed, at least not with some solid support, it's really up to anyone's personal preference to favor which version.

    I mean seriously, such level of response is no better than those pathetic xbot vs SDF wars going in and out of many other forums.

    Anyway this is going OT indeed, I'll stop my rants here.
     
  16. Blade47167

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    Completely agree. All the BS on IGN and the other sites about PS3 Fallout 3 being bugged to hell and back, bad port, blah blah made me hold off on my purchase. If it weren't for the discussions that came up in that thread I wouldn't now own the game which I have enjoyed tremendously. Why do we not have a thread where people can actually post opinions about the way things look on their tvs?
     
  17. liolio

    liolio Aquoiboniste
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    the problem is deeper... sadly...

    Hi Alstrong,

    First I think it's a really nice initiative of you.
    These threads need to be saved they are what made B3D (console section) what it's.
    But it's a double sword, as fanboys come to gather informations (or pieces of it, likely the part they want to hear...) and are likely to devoy the forum.
    On the other side I don't want to really on marketing departments...

    The point is for me that the porblem is deeper and specific to "the console forums".
    Other boards here are way more polite and people tend to behave way better in regard to their personal preferences.

    I remember when the console forum went down for a while and the "no Vs " rule that have commanded to its rebirth.
    Imho, these policies have failed, for example my ignore has never been so big.
    Imho they have make things worse and tougher for you mods as stealth trolling as become the "norm" for so many members.

    While all of this is said, we found ourselves in the same situation, what could be done to improve the average forum behaviour while keeping mods work minimal.


    I think that what we have to discuss here, which rules are, aren't would be relevant in our case.
     
    #17 liolio, Nov 6, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 6, 2008
  18. lbartley

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    Any chance of getting those shots reposted somewhere, or links sent to me via PM?
     
  19. assurdum

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    Quote. I means I have reported some shots where can see texture are better on ps3 characters and no more, I haven't said ps3 domination, or fallout 3 better on ps3 , I want just to do notice there are some parts on ps3 aren't completely crappy and anyone before hasn't seen that, what mean post a list of 'super performance' of 360 version and comment ' AA is better', or to complain texture on bug and hairs not count and even to blame of low quality of shot when these part are clear enough? I think all is relevalant to analize a version or not?
     
  20. TheAlSpark

    TheAlSpark Moderator
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    Pruning things in the MP dev thread - noise/OT/non-contributions, moving *direct* game comparisons to a new thread, keeping the general dev issues in-place.

    This is one of the major issues with thread splitting for as much as I can tell, the forum is very specific about sorting and I can't insert, at the very least, an official post with rules at the beginning of the split thread. I'll look into it.
     
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