Rage / ID tech 5 @ E3

Discussion in 'PC Gaming' started by slapnutz, Jul 15, 2008.

  1. slapnutz

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    Yeah, I see what he meant initially now. True Crysis' texture appear in very high detail but they are simply thousands of texture files that are stamped across a level and reused in other levels.

    In Rage, the environments (ground geometry) use for the most part, one single "megatexture" file that covers it all. JC did say that some of the wasteland envronment megatextures are 64kx64k resolution per massive area.

    Basically, yeah youre right.
     
  2. Neb

    Neb Iron "BEAST" Man
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    But lighting also plays a role in how the texture mapping/shading is expressed. Well see how things turn out in the future regarding IDtech 5 texturing method (Doom 4?). But Rage despite it having more unique textures it doesnt have better texture detail resolution nor mapping or lighting to reveal that detail. Starring upclose on a surface will reveal the large differences.

    Yeah I see it has a greater number of unique textures. So in that sense IDtech 5 engine does more for less. Though I've yet to see anything above decent texture detail resolution (close range) and lighting to reveal this detail from ID tech 5 Rage demo. :smile:
     
    #102 Neb, Aug 17, 2008
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  3. Neb

    Neb Iron "BEAST" Man
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    Yeah I understand that but it at the same time it would be great to have textures that doesnt look like sh*t upclose!

    In that sense I rather take repetion of textures that arent really noticed as repeated textures isntead of a low/med-res texture resolution across the whole levels with no repetition.
     
    #103 Neb, Aug 17, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 17, 2008
  4. slapnutz

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    I think theres a simple reason for this.

    Do you think Crysis would retain its maximum texture resolution if it was recoded to run on xbox360/ps3 at a continous 60fps on 1280x720? I'm guessing very unlikely.:wink:
     
  5. idsn6

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    [​IMG]

    There are more texels in this man's face than pixels in your monitor. Performance and memory footprint are unaffected; the only limits on the amount of textural detail are disk space and artist discretion.

    I understand that you like Crysis (a lot, apparently), and it does do a lot of things that simply haven't been seen in Rage. But then, what has been seen of Rage is actually very little. I would wait to see more footage of idTech5 that's neither taken with an off-screen camera nor a year old (both of which apply to the picture above) before making any sweeping statements.
     
  6. Chris123234

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    I'd just like to point out that Rage is running on consoles at 60 fps and is going to share the same assets with the PC, supposedly.
     
  7. Neb

    Neb Iron "BEAST" Man
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    Unless the world texturing consists of face textures then... And it looks flat vs Crysis faces regarding texture and fine grain detail. Also I thought the 'plastic fantastic' era was over... :wink:

    You still need to put it into RAM/VRAM when upping the resolution of the massive texture or increase the LOD aggressivity, nothing is for free!

    I've seen the world textures and I've seen the promo shots at their native res (2560x1600) and its not close at all regarding texture resolution and fine grain detail. Of course as SlapNutz said its supposed to run on consoles at 60fps so there are trade offs, still doesnt change that the fine grain detail is miles away. Maybe Doom4 for PC will show the true strenght of IDtech 5 engine when released in the future.
     
    #107 Neb, Aug 17, 2008
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  8. idsn6

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    Did you miss the part where there is more "fine grain detail" than can be physically displayed at this distance? Remember two things: this is a compressed still from a video recording of a projector, and every surface in iT5 is MegaTextured the same way.

    No, see, that's the thing. In iT5, it is for free. There is literally zero difference to the video card. That's the entire point.
     
  9. Chris Lux

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    the problem is that it is not free. you have only so much resouces for the working set texture for a frame and you only have so much bandwidth to stream in new parts. no if you want double the detail in, for example, the face it may happen that you will either not see the full detail in there or something in the circumcircle will get blurry. it is all about limited resouces. and that is why i think the pc version will look better (faster texture streaming and more texture memory resources).
     
  10. Neb

    Neb Iron "BEAST" Man
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    Yet it doesnt do it, it can but isnt doing fine grain detail upclose (except faces) as seen in the promo shots to.

    There are 2 promo shots out linked 2 pages back at 2560x1600 res. And as said I rather have repeated textures of high resolution and fin grain detail than average textures "across the board".

    Are you talking about art variety or texture res/fine grain detail? If not art then you say that a texture of 1024kx1024k for a level would have the same LOD as a 64kx64k texture this with no perfomance impact and independant of VRAM and RAM amount?
     
  11. idsn6

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    MegaTextures do not have these issues. Whether the highest resolution is 1k or 128k, the streaming only deals with small tiles of a fixed size from any given mip level. The number of these tiles needed to cover the screen at an acceptable LOD is upper bounded at what might be surprisingly low counts. The VRAM required is constant and the load does not change.
     
  12. Sxotty

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    I think having that much detail available may come back to haunt them. All the enemies for example will look the same, and looking at the detail in their faces they will look really the same, not just kinda of generically the same.
     
  13. Chris Lux

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    yes, you say it.

    and as a result the visible lods are determined by the amount of vram available. for example you have 256MiB available and the face texture (as for the example) requires 200MiB at its fines LOD you only have 56MiB to spare for the rest of the currently visible scene. independent of the bandwith with which the tiles are streamed in you have a problem there. so there are two (or more) ways to deal with this: first you accept the loss of visual quality in the vicinity or second you reduce the LOD of the face to get better LODs for the rest of the scene. as simple as that.

    you might think megatexture means that the texture tiles are streamed in on demand multiple times for a single frame. but that is a wrong assumption. the tiles are streamed in to account some kind of error metric (like roughly described above). so its not that first the textures for the face are streamed in and then the texture tiles for the rest of the scene. the texture resource budget defines the texture detail of the whole scene you will see.

    so as i said, the pc will look better in terms of more vram to spare and quicker texture tile streaming due to better(?) bandwiths available.
     
  14. Chris123234

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    You mean megatextures wont make my Geforce 6200 Turbocache look as good as a GTX 280?!?!?

    :wink:
     
  15. Richard

    Richard Mord's imaginary friend
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    Or third, you understand how MT works and realise that if a character's face takes up 90% of the screen as the shot posted above then you can have 200Mb dedicated to it and only 50mb (actually less but let's not get into that) to the other 10%. One more time for the cheap seats: VIDEO MEMORY LOAD IS CONSTANT.

    Each and every character shown so far in the trailers or two screenshots are completely unique, both in terms of geometry and texturing: that's exactly the point of MT.

    Could you point out the upclose surfaces in those two shots that are lacking the upclose fine grain detail that Crysis has?

    Personally I wouldn't. In Crysis versus ETQW I already prefer the uniquely textured terrains even if at close range they are lower resolution than Crysis'. It wasn't that hard to spot the tiled repetition in Crysis and if you saw a patch of grass you saw them all. The terrain lacked any interesting geometry features unless they were props in which case you'd clearly notice the texture seams. Not to mention that Crysis has streaming issues on even moderately reasonable computers and runs much slower. In fact, I would say that the terrain subsystem is CryEngine2's Achilles heel: except for being able to punch holes in it, it's not that different from BF1942's terrain system or even older games.

    Crysis

    ETQW
     
  16. Chris Lux

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    oh i understand perfectly how it works. i myself work at similar techniques for other application areas.

    and yes if the face is taking up 90% if the screen you are right. but much of the cached textures are thrown out and when we move away they have to be paged back in. with limited bandwidth this will take some frames and we see blurry surfaces. my point only is that megatexture will perform differently given different preconditions. and yes i know rage will be tuned for the 360 and ps3. but the pc will have the edge with the larger video memory available (larger tile cache == better visible lods) and possibly higher bandwidths (faster tile uploads == more tiles per frame updateable). and yes the video memory load will be constant, but as is said each platform will/can have different cache sizes.
     
  17. Sxotty

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    That is my point actually.

    They have a few options.

    1) Spend forever making unique textures for generic enemies
    2) Make them generic and splash some random wrinkles onto them
    3) Make them generic and deal with it

    If they do anything but #1 I think the user may start getting something similar to the uncanny valley effect. Just that they look the same, but not quite and it seems weird at such high detail.

    I realize so far they have done well so far, but surely they don't have time to do every character, even cannon fodder ones in such high detail.
     
  18. Blazkowicz

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    but you have the same character problem with every engine. Hell the game where it was the most apparent is the original half-life, with the same Barney guard and Einstein scientist all over again :).
    Maybe they can get away with a handful of faces for each generic mutant enemy type, as long as the characters you speak to have unique faces.
     
  19. Sxotty

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    Right but it is less apparent when the detail in the characters is so absent to begin with. At least that is what I was positing. Higher detail makes that repitition stand out more not less.
     
  20. Neb

    Neb Iron "BEAST" Man
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    For the promo bullshots(?), all but the faces (DoF blurs some things behind so that is ignored).

    Of course its not on all surfaces on Crysis but its there on lots of them, even just at a couple of centimeters away it still shines big-time.

    Have not the gaming PC running so oldies will do it.

    Image 1
    Image 2
    Image 3
    Image 4
    Image 5
    Image 6

    I'll await more screenshots from Rage but until then...
     
    #120 Neb, Aug 18, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 18, 2008
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