R520 Infomania

No, they tried to optimise for NV3x but they failed. Rather than release the game with SM2 visuals which didn't work properly on NV3x hardware (pp creating banding artefacts) Valve decided to cut NV3x back to DX8/8.1. So they took out the NV paths.

It turns out there's very few shaders that pp actually makes a difference on (i.e. reduced IQ). So it's arguable whether Valve should have been so draconian. But we don't know the full story.

And when the game is a year later than the year late it already is, you reach a point where you decide it isn't worth it, I guess. Especially if NVidia has hardware on the horizon that works in full SM2 mode without any issues.

It'll be interesting to see if there ever are ATI Levels. I think things have dragged on so long now that they won't happen.

The only possibility for ATI to out-perform NVidia would seem to be with dynamic branching in the pixel shader code.

Is there much chance that the HDR code makes use of dynamic branching? Will G70 do quad-level dynamic branching? Will R520?

Jawed

 

Most interesting. Thanks.

 

Then why changing one water shader change benchmarks so dramatically on the gf 6 line of cards?

Since all surfaces use full precision shaders, one shader shoudln't make a big difference in HL2, which also is semi transparent so there is no per pixel occulision to take care of the other pixels behind.

 

From what I've seen Shadermark is a really poor synthetic benchmark. Forgetting observations that there are parts of it that are texture-limited, real shader code doesn't consist of doing the same, one thing, over and over.

Just my opinion really. Shadermark seems fairly wide of the mark in predicting GPU performance across architectures. I ignore Shadermark comparisons...

Jawed

 

Well we will ahve to see, the leaked version of the source engine had the same shaders as what was in the final version, and nV's cards were alot faster and the gf 6 line was actually ahead of the x800 in this beta leak.

So there were changes done from the early version of the Source engine till the final release that really dropped the performance on the gf 6 line.

 

So why insunuate anything in the first place? The rumour was, ati paid them some money to include a shader path to improve the perfomance on the game on their onw boards - big whoop. The fact is, far cry has a big nvidia logo on the box, so we know some money has gone from nvidia to crytek there.

Because there is a clip plane issue. iirc, if you do the same on an fx board the water doesn't appear at all, because it can't handle the clip plane in the same fashion - gf6 obviously can so it get a performance boost when using the ati path, which does have this clipping enabled.

 

Nvidia doesn't pay in that program thats not what TWIMTBP is about. The only thing they do is do so free advertising for you and make sure everything runs well. So you really think every game in the TWIMTBP program gets money? Is that what its about? If that was the case, 2 years ago with the FX line Nvidia would have paid every developer to mak ethier games optimized for the fx line, did that happen? NO. They would have bought out Valve to box with thier cards if that was the case. They didn't because they don't need to, they never needed too. ATi has to because they are just starting off thier dev rel program.

Nvidia has Unreal, it has ID, it had Crytek.....

 

Are you sure about the gf 6 line and clip plan? I don't think so. Opps ment to edit the previous post sorry

 

Yes there is an clipplane issue. But not with the FX boards. This is an error in the HL2 config file. This config file tells the engine that the FX did not support user clipplanes. The engine need user clipplanes for the water. Because of this it did not work on FX boards. If you change the config file or the device id the water works well.

 

If I remember correctly Nvidia helped to wright the SM2 path for the HALO port on the PC. We all know haw craptastic the NV3X was on SM2 compared to the r3xx yet the performance in that game was basically even between the two cards.

 

Cleary there is some incentive.

Don't games take a little while to develop? Did nvidia have the same profits they had prior to fx?

Really? there is no difference between dev rel and marketing campaigns targeting developers or publishers or titles?

Look for a file called dxsupport.cfg in the steam install - it has numerous different settings (not hidden) for different boards, and they are different between 6800 and x800 so using a different device id will obviously use different settings from this file (you'll notice that not all the performances went up in that link).

 

Yes. Where do you get that it's free?

COUGH-COUGHtombraiderangelofdarkness/idd3benchmarkscamCOUGH-COUGH

'Scuse me I had a cough, what did ya say?

They couldn't have bought out Valve, they didn't have the cash.

Oh yes, I believe ATi just started talking to devs finally last week....

 

Well are you part of a company thats in one of these dev rel programs? do you talk to dev rel people about your technical inquires?

I do, and I was there when my company was offered to become part of TWIWMTBP program and there is no cash involved. Which we never took it because we weren't ready for marketing yet. They gave use free GDC tickets and showed us off at GDC but thats about it. This is the same thing they did for Crytek, this is the same thing they did for Pain Killer, this is the same thing they did for Stalker, this is the same thing they did for Breed. Yeah they give use some dev rel cards and discounts too but no cash traded hands period.

The only incentives are for companies that don't really have a publishing deal to get know by publishers. Doom is there because they have always been co marketting with Nvidia. Valve went to ATi because ATi bid most for them.

6 million bucks ain't much for the a 2 billion a year company that spends 400 mill a year on development. Plus with the bad publicity with HL2 and valve it would have been a worth while investment.

ATi's dev rel program for game companies only started to pick up about two years maybe alittle bit longer, Nvidia has been doing it for alot longer, Digi you can check it this out if ya want just call up ATi ask for Dev rel they will give you thier phone number.

Check the screen differences, there are rendering differences there, that means different shaders! If the math was the same to begin with there wouldn't be those differences would there?

 

They have the cash to buy Valve. But they dont have the permission, and why would they. They are a Stockholder company. Public. How would buying Valve help them raise value.... Razor1 welcome to the REAL world. Its about money. nothings for free. But that doesnt mean a company has to cheat, lie, missdirect, through there marketing/PR department. Tho some do.

 

they lost to NVDA in the bidding, why? well they went with doom, and had a card that sux at HL2 in 2003. If the 6mil$ is correct( i havent a clue) then i bet thats the highest bribe ever in the gaming industry between IHV and a Dev.

 

Thats the thing ID never put it up for auction like Valve did,

ATi won the bid but Nvidia definitly could have gotten if they really wanted to.

http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,112727,00.asp

 

the leaked beta, yeah I saw that one, the russians (xbit?) had benchmarks "highly expected directx9 game" and you saw ati win all over the board, this was in the time that ati's lead in hl2 went from 40% to 20% (remember it?)

If it was really true that changing the device id of a 6800ultra to, say x850xt-pe and it would win in every hl2 benchmark, why hasn't ANY respectable site done so? only two screenshots of mainly differences between lighting on weapon models don't give me 5% extra performance.

And the Ati levels are there, as posted before, at least the bloom effect is in source, it's just not enabled (gary's mod can) and Demirug noted that there are two different rendering methods:

 

I'm not convinced the TWIMTBP makes sure nvidia hardware runs the game good, or better thant he competetion, since there has been a large number of titles that run better on ati hardware, far cry and EQ2 come to mind.

 

Okay, ati pumped in 6 million.

The hardware survey (http://www.steampowered.com/status/survey.html) shows 220.000 9600 and 9800 cards used.
let's say $75 for the 9600xt processor, and $125 for the 9800xt processor:

113.240*$125=$14.155.000
107.932*$75=$8.094.900
Ati sure as hell made a lot of money with their 96/98+hl2 ad. campaign...