R420 might only support pixel shader 2.0

jvd-

Softimage XSI

 

Guys, take it easy.

Bry, jvd, there are reasons for buying NVidia cards over ATI. ChrisRay's points are all valid. AF is another point for picky people. Workstation apps is yet another reason.

However, ChrisRay, you can't honestly believe that the majority of NVidia purchasers are educated on the subject. A friend of mine recently bought a 5200 with his computer, and he's more educated than the average. But when I showed him the HL2 benchmarks he was really pissed.

But I don't think you believe this. Your gripe seems to be with people who believe all NV3x purchasers are idiots, and that gripe's well justified.

 

I was hoping it just might be something not exposed in ATI's drivers. If you read the readme file for Pete's OGL plugin he says that Very High X internal resolution only works on gfFX cards, and then only with 5x.xx drivers. Meaning that 4x.xx wasn't exposing whatever functionality was needed.

 

Emulation is not Ilegal, Piracy Is Ilegal, I cant believe you'd be so daft to post such un educated material. And Insulting at that,

http://www.mobygames.com/featured_article/feature,14/section,67/

Sony was ruled against Several times, Bleem was killed because Sony had more money than them..


Emulation in itself Isnt Ilegal, There are perfectly legal free emulators, Pirating games you dont own, Downloading games you dont have, distrubing Bios files is ilegal. There is nothing Ilegal about Firing up Chrono Cross from your store bought CD,

Many People, Like Myself, Use the Playstation Emulator as an Opurtunity to improve the graphics well beyond what the Playstation is currently capable of, Also, I can use backup Disks without having to modify my Playstation, Thus keeping my CDs intact and in better working condition.


In Regards to Drivers? I have never said ATI Drivers are instable, heck I'm Running an AtI Radeon 8500 All In Wonder DV in my second machine right now, Stability has never been an issue for cept way back during Catalyst 2.8 drivers and Need for Speed Hot Persuit 2,

No I dont honestly believe Majority of Nvidia users are educated, I do know, The Average user really dont care tho. I mean all things considering I'd rather have a slow card that barely supports the features than a card that doesnt support them at all, (Hence I am mainly talking about the 5200, and IMO at least Nvidia tried to rectify there Geforce 4 MX mistake,

I still remember my brother replacing his Geforce 2 MX with a Geforce FX 5200 PCI (128 Bit version) and he was just blown away by the fact that Neverwinter Nights water was Shiny. hehe


And thank you for understanding my point, It gets irritating to be called a newbie, fool, hell JVD just called me even worse, a Thief, Unfortunately the results of forums these days is that if you own an Nvidia card, You obviously are just fanboy, and have no good reason to buy the card.

Forgive me for sounding annoyed, But feeling the need to be defensive at all times, Just because you bought an Nvidia card, gets pretty old ;p

Well Nvidia for the longest time had support for the textures opf 4096x4096 size, But only recently exposed it in the drivers, (this is true because Petes OpenGL 2.0 Plugin became available around the OpenGL 1.5 was released along with the 52.16 dets, Which was a little bit before I bought my Nvidia card,



But Btw, Its a hardware Limitation, ATI has all but confirmed its a hardware limitain, If you go back in read the original thread I linked you its noted there. I felt it was a big deal so I made it a point to ask because, Like you, I'd like to see ATI improve on some of these issues, Because I really like ATI's Anti Aliasing Performance/Quality, There are a few issues ATI could improve on that would sell me so quick...

but you know me.. I'm a picky SoB

 

no by passing security on the discs to play it on your pc is illegal .

Yes you can make an emulater but unless the software is released to the public for free your not allowed to run any of the games even off the original cds or dvds .

 

Thats why we have freeware Emulators, I dont see your point, there are tons of freeware Emulators and freeware graphical Plugins,

Besides, Court has ruled in favor of emulation for years now, Its not ilegal to emulate so long as you come up with a new way of reading the Disks, Without Breaking the code, Something PSX emulators have done for a long long time now.

It wouldnt hurt for you to look it up. because Espxe and AdriPSX Both have their own method of decoding PSX Data, Heck Even Bleem Decoded the disk in a way thats not bypassing the encryption on PSX disks,

Really JVD, The Only reason Sony Went after Bleem (Which they failed at quite miserably) Was because it was a commercial product, The Only reason Bleem was shut down is because Sony pressured anyone who sold the product in their stores, By cutting them off of their products.


Anyway, I'm done discussing with you, It's really ridiculous that you are so caught up in your Anti Nvidia drivel, You have to insult anyone and everyone who has different opinions than you, You have been insulting on So Many Instances in this thread, I cant believe its tolerated,

I listed to me what were validated reasons for Owning an Nvidia card, and your only responce to them were to lay out insults and rude remarks about my reasoning for preferring the Nvidia product, Just because you cant understand or relate to my reasoning.

 

ChrisRay, I really don't mean to insult, but I've just got to ask now : what's up with the capitals?

 

Capitals? as in Caps Key? *confused*

 

Yup.

 

Ahh you mean How I tend to use them in strange places? just a habit

 

OK... it certainly is unique. (Reminds me of reading German a bit.)
Thanks and sorry for the OT.

 

I never said there were no reasons. They are awsome DX-8 level cards. And I agree with thw workstation comment. If you want to see my point look at it this way.
They sell the 5200 and 5600 as DX-9 parts. Yet they will never run HL-2 in DX-9. How many bought these cards thinking they could.
They praised FP-32 as the next highest lever of graphics. And yet they can't do it.
They claim they they can run all levels of FSAA in all resolutions with no drop in FPS
My comment was in reguards to no one would buy a card not knowing. Well alot of people read what NVidia says in their PR and think they are getting one thing and getting something different.
Oh and lets not forget the Cheats in benchmarks. that make their cards look better in reviews. And these people seeing these results, and thinking these cards must be ok
How about sayint their card was an 8x1 pipeline structure..only to find out later it was 4 x 2.
Unfortunately there is only two bigwigs in the graphics market and we need two players to keep technology rising and prices down. So I do not want NV to fail. I do however fail to see how people can be so blindly loyal to a company that lied to them. Cheated to hide the lies. And pulled all the stunts NVidia has this past year and a half.

 

Bry, you don't have to convince me. Hell, look at my last post. My friend was deceived into buying the 5200. I'm a big supportor of ATI, but before NV3x my allegiance was mostly based on how much you get for your dollar, and even then I always loved the per clock efficiency of GF3 and GF4. However, ChrisRay is offended that jvd implied all NV3x buyers are uneducated or irrational. Most are uneducated when it comes to graphics cards, but not all.

 

How many people bought 9800s thinking they could run HL2 last september? Vaporware has to actually exist before you can claim a realized benefit. I have a 9700. I didn't bother getting a 9800. When HL2 comes out (September 2004? 2005?) I'll have an R420/NV40 to run it. Currently, HL2 simply isn't a consideration in my current video card purchase. I will upgrade when it comes out.

Some dude who bought a cheapass 5200 saved lots of $$$ this year, didn't get punished by HL2 because the game didn't come out, and he can buy a "value" version R420/NV40 card in late 2004/2005 when some real PS2.0 titles come out.

PS2.0 performance has been a washout benefit for the last 12 months. Great for developers who need to start working on those cards today, but has lack of PS2.0 performance actually been a problem for the majority of games sold in the last 12 months?

It's not a question of loyalty, it's a question of being realistic. People who bought NV3x based cards got value for their money. The graphics business isn't winner take all.

 

Democoder someone who bought a 5200ultra last year bought it so they saved alot of money and wont spend more for a few more years .

 

There isn't really any security on Playstation games. You can put the CD in any CD drive and see files on it, and copy them to your PC at will. PSX emulators simply use the files in a meaningful way

And if you say selling something that can do what another companies machine can do is illegal, you had better be using an IBM PC with an Intel processor.

 

I'd assert that people who are so price sensitive are atleast more likely to upgrade to a future value card than to buy a 9600/9700/9800.

Either way, no one who bought NVidia cards in the last 12 months really lost out on PS2.0 performance since there are very few ps2 heavy titles, and it's likely that people on the highend will upgrade anyway, no matter what, when HL2 comes out.

You guys are speculating on a hypothetical value consumer who would have benefited in buying a 9600 and holding it for almost 2 years until they finally got HL2, in which case, hopefully, HL2 would run fine with PS2.0/HDR enabled and they wouldn't need to ugprade, whereas the 5200 user would be forced to ugprade.

#1 9600's performance at HL2 isn't acceptable either. And #2 steam's hardware survey shows vast majority of people on Steam (Valve's loyal customer base) don't even have PS2.0 capable cards.

The reality of the situation is, most of the people playing HL2 when it comes out will either 1) still be using old DX8 cards or 2) have upgraded and skipped NV3x/R3xx. There is no large installed base of R3xx Steam users.

 

Looks like you just essentially proved yourself wrong:

Hmm, maybe because the majority of people only upgrade their card after two years or more. I don't think I'd buy anything between my R100 and R300 if I didn't get a free R200 as a bonus, and I do some graphics development as a hobby. People just don't upgrade that often. It costs too much for the average gamer, especially in light of console costs.

All these people buying 5200's and 5600's are expecting them to last and run DX9 games, just like my friend. What's more is that the 5200 sucks (compared to 8500's, 9000's, GF3's and GF4 ti's) at extensive DX8 ps usage as well.

Furthermore, there will be plenty more DX9 generation cards to be sold, just like people are still buying GF4MX's and the computers that come with one.

Finally, to say a 9600 won't run HL2 acceptably is a gross exaggeration. It will be faster than any DX8 card in DX8 mode (Valve will definately make DX8 cards very playable or they lose a huge market), and DX9 mode won't slow it down much more, even with HDR. I would personally prefer HDR (as would most I think, or the rthdribl demo wouldn't have looked so spectacular) at 640x480 rather than high-res without it.

Come on, DemoCoder, you rarely make nonsensical arguments. What's up with this post of yours?

 

The only nonsensical argument is the one that says there is no reason to buy Nvidia's cards.

 

DC, I agree with you on that point, look at my posts further up where I'm supporting ChrisRay.

But you're saying the 9600 won't run HL2 acceptably.

You're saying a 5200 is a good investment in the interim, yet not only does it blow at DX8 shaders, it won't be merely interim for most people either.

You're saying they got value for the money, but how so? Nearly all DX8 cards, ATI or NVidia, are far better value, and will carry you to the release of R420/NV40 value cards (or beyond if you choose) in better fashion than NV34. HL2 in DX8 will look great as well, and Doom3 won't run faster on the 5200.

EDIT: Well, maybe Doom3 will be slightly faster than the 9000, but we don't really know.