R420 might only support pixel shader 2.0

Discussion in 'Pre-release GPU Speculation' started by rwolf, Feb 22, 2004.

  1. rwolf

    rwolf Rock Star
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  2. Demirug

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    R420 supports a little bit more. It will be able to run long 2.0 shader. This will allow to say it is a 2.X chip.
     
  3. Hyp-X

    Hyp-X Irregular
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    The lack of PS3.0 support is one thing, but the article seem to say there won't be any 3.0 shader support.

    That means no VS3.0 which I find much more disappointing. :(
     
  4. DemoCoder

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    Makes sense if they use F-Buffer to extend instruction limit, and perhaps add arbitrary swizzle and predictation.
     
  5. bloodbob

    bloodbob Trollipop
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    Well if they used F-Buffer it would be a very nice thing for the R350 owners since they are still waiting for it (Just like the R300 are waiting for SSAA). One assumes if the instruction length is no longer a problem if you use F-buffer therefore you could emulate arbitrary swizzles on R350 (assuming enough temps are aviable ) without to much of a problem.

    If the R420 don't support PS3.0 its going to be a long wait before ATI will support PS3.0 support.
     
  6. DemoCoder

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    Man, if this rumor is true, it's going to be an unholy war on this board. Why? Assume hypothetically Nvidia delivers 3.0, with 2.0 performance "fixed". Everyone is going to come down hard on NVidia and say 3.0 is wasted, no one's gonna use it, too early, etc etc (until R500 arrives of course).

    Perhaps this is the reason behind Dave's "Shader 3.0 inflection or deflection" post. If Dave knows the R420 doesn't support 3.0, but that the NV40 does (as some of Nvidia's TWIMTBP devs seem to imply), then of course, it's the first salvo in an argument to assert that 3.0 won't drive games, won' t be that relevent, and doesn't matter.

    Of course, I don't neccessarily disagree. Where the hell is Half-Life2? Where's my killer PS2.0 titles? Where's my games with HDR rendering everywhere? I'm not even sure PS2.0 is an "inflection point" given the paucity of titles at the moment. Vast majority of games I play on my R300 are < DX9 titles. Primarily benefit I have derived from my R300 is IQ.


    Should be an interesting period ahead. I would say that a card capable of PS3.0/VS3.0 is interesting from the standpoint of being able to fully handle GLSlang, which is cool.
     
  7. jvd

    jvd
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    Well this is nothing like what i've been hearing . But oh well any day now and we will find out .
     
  8. Hanners

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    That seems like a pretty weird assumption - I would say the tide here will turn against ATi for not driving their feature set forward (Assuming nVidia's PS 2.0 performance is on or close to a par with ATi's this time around that is).

    Anyway, if this rumour is true, it's pretty much suicide on ATi's part, from a marketing position at least.
     
  9. kyleb

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    ya if it goes down like that i will be happy with nvidia and disspointed with ati, but i think DemoCoder is just projecting how he would react if nvidia was sticking to 2.0 and ati were the ones delivering 3.0. :p

    regardless, i don't see any reason at this point to conclude one way or another as to the validity of the claim.
     
  10. martrox

    martrox Old Fart
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    Well, if that's true, - R420 not having 3.0 - and if nVidia has redone their FSAA and corrected the problems with their filtering - AND done away with the driver cheats - I guess I'll be forced to take a walk on the dark side........ :wink:
     
  11. DemoCoder

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    Well let's wait and see. In the past, it hasn't been true. No one cared when Nvidia introduced new features like 32-bit color, or T&L. The argument then was, even if other cards lacked new features, it wasn't important, only performance on old games, or on the previous year's API spec mattered. I think the only way an IHV could be unassailable is if they delivered 3.0 with hardly any performance problems. Otherwise, people will just argue that dynamic branches, or what have you, are worthless, if they have a serious speed penalty.

    Pretty much, framerate and IQ (aliasing) has been the only reliable indicators on this board that most people can agree on. Everyone else seems split on features, depending on which IHVs have it, and which "camp" they are in.
     
  12. Guden Oden

    Guden Oden Senior Member
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    I believe that post of yours qualifies as a rant, and should be clearly marked as such to properly inform the public! :lol:

    Anyway, I disagree with your assertions. Assume R420 does not support PS3.0, but instead has awesomely sped up PS2.0 instead (pretty big assumption I agree), why would anyone be dissatisfied?

    Is it BAD that it won't run non-existant software, but instead will be running upcoming software much faster? I can't see ANYTHING wrong with that, apart from they'll lose a few points on the geekoid hardware websites for not providing a checkbox feature.

    Does the market really need further fragmentation when even the current shader model barely has any support at all? Seems pretty pointless to criticize ATi for not driving tech forward when there's no software-based reason to invest in current tech.

    Well, that's my take on it anyway... Fanbois may choose to disagree, but I care not. :lol:
     
  13. Demirug

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    I know this is not a proof but IMHO a indication.

    The new version of ASHLI allready supports R420. I am played a little bit around with it. If i use the PS 2.X and R420 Setting I was able to generate long shaders (> 450 instruction) but i was not able to do more than 4 dependent read levels in one pass. If I try this dependet read test with the NV30 profil ASHLI stop working with an internal error. No unlimited dependent read = no PS 3.0 support. Maybe this is only a bug in ASHLI.
     
  14. Dave Baumann

    Dave Baumann Gamerscore Wh...
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    Salvo? That just stems from some conversations I had with some people before Christmas.

    [Edit] : Of course, we'll gloss over the fact the very next news post talks up potential implementations of PS3.0 :roll:

    With Intel supporting it then it'll be more than that - it will become the baseline target eventually.
     
  15. DemoCoder

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    Hahah, brilliant. By misinterpreting my posts, you proved the exact point I was making. I never claimed anyone would be disappointed by the R420 if it didn't have 3.0 shaders. I asserted the reverse. Try rereading my post. Thanks for quickly providing an example to prove my point.

    I never said any such thing. I merely predicted what your argument would be. Your post qualifies as a rant, because you didn't even read what I wrote.
     
  16. DemoCoder

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    I agree. PS2.0 has to filter down still further for the benefits to take hold. It's getting close with cheap DX9 cards from ATI and nVidia, but probably will finally reach that state after the R420/NV40 are released, and R300-class cards become the "low end"
     
  17. Arun

    Arun Unknown.
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    NV4x: The only product family to sport true DX9.1 compliancy! :twisted:


    Uttar
     
  18. DemoCoder

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    Well, aside from there being no DX9.1 yet, isn't IMG working on a 3.0 chip? So atleast it will be IMG and Nvidia, and therefore they would not be "the only ones with 3.0"

    However, I can see the marketing on the wall already. NVidia will milk 3.0 shaders for all their worth, and the other side will argue non-stop that 3.0 is a marketing PR feature only.

    I just hope Nvidia fixed their AA this time. If they deliver performance and 3.0, but same old OGMS FSAA, it won't matter.
     
  19. jvd

    jvd
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    well if ati doesn't support p.s 3.0 and nvidia does I will buy nvidia as long as the image quality is on par with ati . p.s 3.0 is actually usable . p.s 2 is as fast or faster than ati .
     
  20. DemoCoder

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    I don't think ASHLI can be used to determine R420's support level. Is this the only source of the no 3.0 rumors?

    Even Cg didn't fully support the NV30 when it was first released. I wouldn't expect ASHLI to support 100% of the R420's capabilities at this moment.
     
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