PSP2, gPhone, or iPhone?

[edepot]

Which gadget is going to take over the world?

PSP2, gPhone, or iPhone?

There are many problems with the gPhone, interpretation in particular:

http://www.edepot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1151

The PSP has the current advantage for 3D on mobile devices:

http://www.edepot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1106

Android and iPhone are aiming for the PSP market:

http://www.edepot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=956


So in summary, could the PSP have started this trend towards powerful mobile devices? I think so. And the PSP2 (if it gets released) will probably provide the most powerful GPU when released.

 

[Ailuros]

I don't see why anyone would compare mobile phones with handheld gaming consoles, even if the first have some gaming capabilities or on the other hand future handhelds could be used as a phone also.

Despite all other factors a handheld console has the "luxury" that it's usually quite a bit larger than a mobile phone, which gives the designers/manufacturers the headroom to incorporate more powerful hardware w/o necessarily influencing battery life/power consumption. A mobile phone on the other hand with the size of a shoe doesn't sound like a good idea, since it would very impractical.

That said in all likeliness both the PSP2 (which isn't going to launch in 2009 and I have severe doubts that you'll see it in 2010 either - if yes than close to the end of the year) as well as future iterations of the iPhone are going to contain with all likeliness PowerVR IP aka SGX, with the PSP2 of course most likely having higher hardware specifications both on the CPU as well as on the GPU side.

As for the PSP having a more powerful graphics accelerator than the current iPhone, it might very well be the case since the latter carries only a MBXLite + VGP Lite and even if not by a very big margin IMHLO. However since future iPhone models are going to carry an SGX variant and in all likeliness rather a SGX53x, it won't be too long before that balance will break up until of course the PSP2 appears.

In any case it still remains a fact that whoever wants a handheld console he'll most likely purchase a handheld and not a mobile phone.

 

[eastmen]

I don't get it . If the psp2 is a similar form factor as the psp or even ds lite , its way to big for a moblie phone that people will carry with them everywhere. Also the current psp gets pretty crap battery life , i don't think a more powerfull system would get better battery life.

Basicly the iphone and others like it will remain in the lead in terms of install base when put together over any handheld. For alot of people its just easier to carry around a phone than it is for ap hone and a game system or even just a game system with phone features.

The iphone will also never become a psp or ds competitor because of its input options , sure its good for a quick game of something , but try to put anything more complex on it and it fails at it.

 

[Ailuros]

I don't get it . If the psp2 is a similar form factor as the psp or even ds lite , its way to big for a moblie phone that people will carry with them everywhere. Also the current psp gets pretty crap battery life , i don't think a more powerfull system would get better battery life.

That's why I said that they're two totally different markets. As for the PSP successor, since the PSP was designed you wouldn't think that far more powerful batteries and far smaller manufacturing processes are available today, even more so about 2 years from now?

Basicly the iphone and others like it will remain in the lead in terms of install base when put together over any handheld. For alot of people its just easier to carry around a phone than it is for ap hone and a game system or even just a game system with phone features.

Albeit NOKIA, Dell, Acer and others are going to introduce "direct" competing smartphones for the iPhone at GSMA I don't have a clue if any of those will have 3D capabilities (NOKIA's N97 for one doesn't have any 3D accelerator).

***edit: some relevant links:

http://www.nokia.com/A4136001?newsid=1274500
http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=14109

A handheld is still in it's own league and a totally different market.

The iphone will also never become a psp or ds competitor because of its input options , sure its good for a quick game of something , but try to put anything more complex on it and it fails at it.

Exactly.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

iphone wins because it can run Quake 3 =)

 

[eastmen]

That's why I said that they're two totally different markets. As for the PSP successor, since the PSP was designed you wouldn't think that far more powerful batteries and far smaller manufacturing processes are available today, even more so about 2 years from now?

I would assume that with each psp revision they would have improved on battery tech as well as the chips going to mircon drops and yielding better resulting in lower power drain. I also think they have changed the lcd screen twice each time for less power drain.

If the psp2 offers a leap in graphics it should again push current micron processses and thus be a battery hog as its been with every hand held that moved graphics foward (game gear , nomad , neo geo pocket , lnyx and so on)

Albeit NOKIA, Dell, Acer and others are going to introduce "direct" competing smartphones for the iPhone at GSMA I don't have a clue if any of those will have 3D capabilities (NOKIA's N97 for one doesn't have any 3D accelerator).

***edit: some relevant links:

http://www.nokia.com/A4136001?newsid=1274500
http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=14109

A handheld is still in it's own league and a totally different market.

yes even my touch pro has an ati gpu in it. The point is that there are more windows moblie devices out there than psps and there are more iphones out there tahn psps (or will be soon) So there will allways be a stream of customers willing to buy games for it. They may not buy as many games as the psp or they may buy more when price is factored in , however they are there.

Exactly.

Yup but where the psp and ds more so have to worry is the casual market. Why buy and carry around a ds for sudoku and hexic when you can keep them on your phone and carry only one device ?

 

[catisfit]

...

 

[Arun]

I think the key difference between this generation and the next is handheld consoles will be using the exact same 3D architectures as those on next-generation phones and MIDs. Therefore I can only imagine three main differentiators:
- Size and its implication on battery size -> higher possible performance. There also are dedicated R&D budgets that mean that level of performance may not be available on the merchant market immediately.
- A different ecosystem; given the efficiency of things like Apple's App Store, it's hard to say in advance who will have a real advantage here even for non-casual games.
- A different control system that is likely to be much better suited for most kinds of games.

Differentiators 1 & 3 are likely to be eroded in MIDs as compared to smartphones; screen and battery size is also higher there, so there is no fundamental impossibility in delivering similar or even higher performance. Also there might be a bit more room to innovate control-wise on the device, although I'll admit not to be very optimistic on that front.

FWIW, I agree with the linked analysis on Android's use of Java; I have major difficulties believing that platform will ever be viable for anything but casual games. The iPhone & Windows Mobile ecosystems are the ones I am more optimistic on this front in the next 2-3 years, although it's so damn hard to predict I'd probably be smarter to just shut up!

 

[eastmen]

Arun

I think when you factor in tha the iphone and other phones need to perform their primary functions for large amounts of time with no recharge there will allways be a large gap in performance. Your simply going to be able to have more ram , faster cpu/gpu and larger screens in a game device along with dedicated control inputs .

Also with a larger devices comes better cooling capablitys and larger batterys.

 

[Arun]

Arun

I think when you factor in tha the iphone and other phones need to perform their primary functions for large amounts of time with no recharge there will allways be a large gap in performance.

Your simply going to be able to have more ram , faster cpu/gpu and larger screens in a game device along with dedicated control inputs .

I'll admit not to be 100% sure I understood what you meant; I assume you refer to the classic problem of not being able to use your phone to make an important call because the battery was depleted watching video on the bus/train/whatever. Indeed this is important, as it means even identical battery life does not result in an identical experience for convergence devices.

However, I'd like to reemphasize what I said above: MIDs are different from smartphones. I usually tend to stick to the classic definition of a MID, which is a device with a 4-5" screen and WiFi and/or 3G connectivity. I also believe the fact it has a dual-cell or even triple-cell battery is a key architectural difference (it also affects what the power management subsystem is likely to look like, for example...)

A typical smartphone has a 900-1200mAh battery while the PSP1 has a 1800mAh battery, but a typical MID will easily have a battery similar or even larger than a PSP despite remaining very thin; much thinner, in fact, than the PSP. Also this higher level of performance won't really affect battery life for basic tasks much, if at all.

Ideally, what I'd like to see is very thin 4.3-4.8" 3G MIDs taking over the world, with voice capability being delivered mostly via a Bluetooth headset (BTW, this is very rarely discussed, but if done right - which is very difficult - this approach can actually result in higher full-system battery life because your handheld's speaker can remain disabled!) - of course there also are those that believe everyone will have one MID and one ultra-low-cost phone in their pocket, but I'm quite skeptical personally there.

Fundamentally, the only difference between MIDs and console handhelds will be how much physical space can be dedicated to the control scheme and that the latter will use custom chips. There will still be a market for both, but clearly I think it's not as different as it may appear on first glance.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

Whats a MID? :shame:

I do think they should try and stuff as much as they can in 1 device. Basically, my HTC Touch Diamond already does pretty much everything you'd want and it still has the small form factor. I personally think phones like the iPhone already tend to be too big as far as size goes.

Batterylife is on the short side but in a world were you can pretty much charge your phone everywhere, the only exeptions probably are airplanes and trains, I dont think that is a very big deal.

As said above by nature games will never really work on a phone like machine. A dedicated machine is just alot better for alot of reasons. Unless you dont want more complex games ofcourse. Not so complex games could still work pretty well with a limit amount of buttons or touch screen only input.

 

[Mariner]

Whats a MID?

Mobile Internet Device

 

[Lazy8s]

Being older, about 85% smaller, and clocked about 66% lower, the GPU of the iPhone wasn't targeting devices with as much headroom as the PSP, as mentioned.

 

[wco81]

Where is the evidence that there's an interest in higher-performance 3D games on mobile devices?

The market is dominated by the DS, not the PSP.

That said, looks like if there is a PSP2, it better drop the optical drive (since you can load several full length movies on the iPhone), which might regain some battery life.

That's one thing that Sony didn't support well for the PSP is sideloading or syncing with computers. That's going to be the new paradigm for handheld gaming devices, not requiring optical media or removable flash media.

As for MIDs, netbooks may be it. What are the prospects of putting in GPUs and maybe squeezing in dedicated control buttons somewhere in those cramped keyboards and STILL deliver at $400-500?

 

[Arun]

Here's the golden rule IMO: the 'necessary 3D performance' will follow that of the 'we don't care about 3D performance' market leader. If Nintendo ups the ante with the DS2, even if it's nothing incredible, that becomes the new "must have or this is even worse than Nintendo".

WRT netbooks, are you thinking of x86 or ARM ones? They're quite different devices... NVIDIA claims you'll able to have Tegra 650 10" netbooks at about $199, FWIW. And 7" Tegra 600 ones at $99 or slightly more...

 

[wco81]

I haven't looked that closely at netbooks.

But it appears they're moving and assuming it's not a 1-year fad, I'm sure they will try to differentiate with different chipsets as long as the volume is there.

The main application seems to be getting on the net in the most portable form factor -- the minimal it takes to let you type reasonably and view enough of web pages.

How gaming would figure into these things, who knows. But if they remain popular, someone will try to crowbar gaming capabilities into them.

 

[Ailuros]

If NINTENDO / SONY wouldn't care about high performance 3D accelerators they wouldn't have bought high performance 3D IP (from two different IHVs of course) for the next generation handhelds.

If the psp2 offers a leap in graphics it should again push current micron processses and thus be a battery hog as its been with every hand held that moved graphics foward (game gear , nomad , neo geo pocket , lnyx and so on)

In order to get the PSP2 to consume as much power as PSP (which I severely doubt) I'd dare to speculate that >2 high end GPU cores would be needed under 45/40nm.

I'd be very surprised if something like a SGX543 single core would end up larger than say ~7 sqm@45nm. Feel free to dig up how many square millimeters the graphics part of the PSP1 captures.

yes even my touch pro has an ati gpu in it. The point is that there are more windows moblie devices out there than psps and there are more iphones out there tahn psps (or will be soon) So there will allways be a stream of customers willing to buy games for it. They may not buy as many games as the psp or they may buy more when price is factored in , however they are there.

Of course are the amounts of devices a lot more in the mobile phone markets, but then again not everyone who buys a mobile phone with a graphics accelerator actually plays games on it. On the other hand on a handheld console the consumer will buy it primarily for gaming.

And yes of course are there possibilities as Arun mentions that many devices will merge capabilities, yet they're still separate markets.

Yup but where the psp and ds more so have to worry is the casual market. Why buy and carry around a ds for sudoku and hexic when you can keep them on your phone and carry only one device ?

See 1st paragraph above. One relevant announcement should be:

http://www.imgtec.com/News/Release/index.asp?NewsID=412

Sounds like SGX543 for which:

The SGX543 will probably show up in designs in about 2 years.

http://www.anandtech.com/tradeshows/showdoc.aspx?i=3494&p=7

 

[tangey]

I see someone has added an entry to the powerVR wikipedia page suggesting a 6-core 543 will be used by Sony.

I have some info that suggests that indeed a new PSP will hit the streets for Xmas 2009. The timeline doesn't seem right, given that the assumed sony SGX license in "another high-volume consumer device segment" was only signed ( or at least announced) in Nov last year.

 

[Ailuros]

I see someone has added an entry to the powerVR wikipedia page suggesting a 6-core 543 will be used by Sony.

I highly doubt any real insider would take the risk and fill any blanks regarding such delicate information on wikipedia. Considering it mentions 2,6,16 core licensees I'd say it's pure speculation.

I have some info that suggests that indeed a new PSP will hit the streets for Xmas 2009. The timeline doesn't seem right, given that the assumed sony SGX license in "another high-volume consumer device segment" was only signed ( or at least announced) in Nov last year.

Way too early IMHLO too. If that would be true it would set an integration record for IP.

 

[Panajev2001a]

I see someone has added an entry to the powerVR wikipedia page suggesting a 6-core 543 will be used by Sony.

I have some info that suggests that indeed a new PSP will hit the streets for Xmas 2009. The timeline doesn't seem right, given that the assumed sony SGX license in "another high-volume consumer device segment" was only signed ( or at least announced) in Nov last year.

Easy... a transitional PSN focused PSP-4000 (PSP with touch screen, console shell modifications, second analog stick maybe, no UMD, built-in Flash storage, maybe additional RAM and a SoC/CPU+GPU clock-speed bump, etc...) this year and PSP2 late 2010.