PSGL Advantages

[Color me Dan]

As I understand it PSGL is a tailored version of the OGL ES standard for the PS3. Since the PS3 is a fixed hardware I'm guessing that PSGL has a lot of extra instructions aimed squarely at the PS3 hardware to get the most out of it, How is it to work with? Are there alot of extra instructions you don't find in OGL for the PC or some performance increases that are nifty? I know there are other ways of coding for the PS3, but since PSGL was specialized for the platform in question I'm a bit curious to hear from people who've used it.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Everything I've seen on this board says devs don't use PSGL. It's still an overly clunky interface for creating high-performance graphics. I think it's been mentioned in prototyping, but that's about it. Maybe it'll feature in something like Home games? Otherwise I don't think there's anything to really discuss, as it's not a substantial part of PS3 development.

 

[Color me Dan]

Kind of sad that they haven't unlocked the RSX to Linux users, I'd imagine that if not for pro developers it'd be used by the crowd more used to OGL. I thought it was supposed to lend some familiarity to new Playstation developers from the PC world or am I completely wrong there?

 

[patsu]

Since firmware 2.10, Sony patched the hole that allowed Linux programmers to access RSX directly. These days, the only one remotely close is this: http://forums.ps2dev.org/viewtopic.php?t=10352
... but it is only a VRAM storage driver.

Depending on what you want to do... some use Cell to handle media and computer vision (e.g., spu-medialib, Open CV for Cell, ray tracing).

Blu-ray Live (Firmware 2.2 and up) has a Java graphics framework capable of simple 2D games and probably video handling. You can burn your own Blu-ray discs and play on most BD players (e.g., Scene graph, Animation )

That's about it.

 

[Lucid_Dreamer]

I don't think anyone should expect access to RSX via Linux 'til the NDA is lifted (if ever). It wouldn't make sense to grant access to RSX through Linux and keep that part of the NDA enforced.

 

[Vitaly Vidmirov]

Color me Dan
If you want 3D, PC is a better platform for it. More memory, more capable and easier to program videocards.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Kind of sad that they haven't unlocked the RSX to Linux users, I'd imagine that if not for pro developers it'd be used by the crowd more used to OGL. I thought it was supposed to lend some familiarity to new Playstation developers from the PC world or am I completely wrong there?

Linux users aren't really setting the PS3 Linux world alight with the resources they have available. What would they do with RSX exactly? Homebrew games? They are better avenues for that on more open platforms (XNA). The only reason to dabble with PS3 Linux is for the thrill of Cell development. Everything else is covered by other platforms. And alas, Cell development hasn't gone whoosh. It doesn't seem to have garnered the interest of the Amiga days, which I was hoping for.

 

[Color me Dan]

Hehe, I'm afraid I have been misunderstood. I don't code, I'm just curious. Sorry if I gave anyone the wrong impression.

 

[ERP]

Since firmware 2.10, Sony patched the hole that allowed Linux programmers to access RSX directly. These days, the only one remotely close is this: http://forums.ps2dev.org/viewtopic.php?t=10352
... but it is only a VRAM storage driver.

Depending on what you want to do... some use Cell to handle media and computer vision (e.g., spu-medialib, Open CV for Cell, ray tracing).

Blu-ray Live (Firmware 2.2 and up) has a Java graphics framework capable of simple 2D games and probably video handling. You can burn your own Blu-ray discs and play on most BD players (e.g., Scene graph, Animation )

That's about it.

FWIW at the risk of starting rumors, last time I talked to someone who might actually know, they said that the intent was to eventually expose RSX through Linux. But that was a couple of months ago and he said it was due to happen fairly soon.

 

[patsu]

Thanks (!) and great if true, but I am not going to hold my breathe

I have been tracking various mailing lists on and off, I'll just keep doing so until they get to it. I am sure Sony has their hands full with so many things in play. It will take years before they get to Linux.

I am toying with the idea of using BD-Live to do some sort of Home Automation app. Using BD-Live (+ WiFi), NetBlender could get PS3 to talk to iPhone in the Game OS. With the Grin framework, I can also accept input from remote control (or mouse). It seems doable. Have visited HomeTech once just to check out the interfaces and devices.

If I can find time, I might just start something (open source based) over Thanksgiving.

 

[TimothyFarrar]

I don't think anyone should expect access to RSX via Linux 'til the NDA is lifted (if ever). It wouldn't make sense to grant access to RSX through Linux and keep that part of the NDA enforced.

Providing a GL port for PS3 as a binary kernel driver seems like a good solution to this problem. It's not like you would need NDA information to program GL. GL makes more sense anyway from a porting Linux apps perspective.

 

[Fafalada]

I have been tracking various mailing lists on and off, I'll just keep doing so until they get to it. I am sure Sony has their hands full with so many things in play. It will take years before they get to Linux.

I think it'll happen eventually, but obviously it's not an issue with any kind of real priority compared to rest of things on the system. Remember that PS2 Linux Kit didn't materialize overnight either, and they had no security issues to contend with on that one.

I don't expect they'll open up complete HW documentation this time around though.

 

[patsu]

Yes, that's what I meant. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate what Sony has done and planned to do. But as a consumer, I recognize that they need to enhance more popular features first (unless this Linux development represents a strategic thrust).

For now, I'll just find my own way to poke around the system. Blu-ray sounds cool enough since I potentially have a wider install base. Linux also does not address my desire/need to run my app in the GameOS.

 

[Betanumerical]

Everything I've seen on this board says devs don't use PSGL. It's still an overly clunky interface for creating high-performance graphics. I think it's been mentioned in prototyping, but that's about it. Maybe it'll feature in something like Home games? Otherwise I don't think there's anything to really discuss, as it's not a substantial part of PS3 development.

If they don't use PSGL, what do they use then? surely not libgcm. Or is there a 3rd API I'm not aware of.

 

[patsu]

surely not libgcm

Why not ? Too low level ?

EDIT: http://www.inalogic.com/post/choosing-your-graphics-api-for-the-ps3/

 

[Betanumerical]

Why not ? Too low level ?

EDIT: http://www.inalogic.com/post/choosing-your-graphics-api-for-the-ps3/

yeah I think it is to low level for everyone to use. I've be wondering for a while, how much faster is libgcm compared to PSGL on the same scene? or has no one tested that?.

 

[assen]

The question is what is the benefit of PSGL. A very small minority of multiplatform developers would have a OpenGL renderer. There would be some value in a DirectX-like API for easier porting from PC and Xbox360 codebases, even if it was somewhat inefficient, I guess it would get used more than PSGL is. On the other hand, exclusive developers are more likely to want to maximize hardware utilization, and PSGL is not good for them either.

 

[Color me Dan]

From the link http://www.inalogic.com/post/choosing-your-graphics-api-for-the-ps3/ (Thanks for that btw, interesting read)

The libgcm API is only available on the PS3. You cannot run it on the PC. If you use the OpenGL API on the PC and the PS3 you can benefit from a number of things.

Similarities between OpenGL on PC and PSGL on PS3 and the dependence of PSGL on libgcm should leave enough options to make the best compromises for the game.

I didn't know PSGL had roots in libgcm; Considering that Sony will be releasing an update to PSGL according to them "If customer demand is high enough", would that be of more interest to developers if it added more libgcm commonality and functions while retaining PC compatibility? I don't know how that'd be done since I don't code myself but I'm guessing it'd be an interesting concept if possible.

 

[DJ12]

Everything I've seen on this board says devs don't use PSGL. It's still an overly clunky interface for creating high-performance graphics. I think it's been mentioned in prototyping, but that's about it. Maybe it'll feature in something like Home games? Otherwise I don't think there's anything to really discuss, as it's not a substantial part of PS3 development.

PSGL is used in Dirt and Driver: Grid.

I don't think it has anything to do with OpenGL ES.

I think PSGL has been around since the PS2.

Search Carl Bs posts and you'll find an interview with it's creator.

 

[Betanumerical]

PSGL is used in Dirt and Driver: Grid.

I don't think it has anything to do with OpenGL ES.

I think PSGL has been around since the PS2.

Search Carl Bs posts and you'll find an interview with it's creator.

PSGL = PlayStation GLide.

I'm pretty sure about it infact.