PowerVR GX5300 - new ultra-small core (0.55mm2)

Discussion in 'Mobile Graphics Architectures and IP' started by tangey, Jul 16, 2014.

Tags:
  1. tangey

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2006
    Messages:
    1,406
    Likes Received:
    149
    Location:
    0x5FF6BC
  2. Entropy

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2002
    Messages:
    2,912
    Likes Received:
    774
    Interesting. Would have loved to see some power draw figures in the blog post, but alas.
     
  3. tangey

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2006
    Messages:
    1,406
    Likes Received:
    149
    Location:
    0x5FF6BC
    The blog author responded to my question regarding how it compares to a SGX531 or SGX543 by saying it'll go "up to" 1GFlop at the 280mhz frequency.

    If wikipedia is accurate, that puts it just about the same as SGX520 (never productised), which is 2.6mm2@ 65nm. In the early days, IMG did state typical die area for some of its cores. How that area extrapolates to TSMC's 28nm process, I don't know.

    I wonder is this a tweaked SGX520 by another name ?
     
    #3 tangey, Jul 16, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 16, 2014
  4. Ailuros

    Ailuros Epsilon plus three
    Legend Subscriber

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    9,408
    Likes Received:
    172
    Location:
    Chania
    The IMG press release states 250MHz and not 280MHz. That's 4 FLOPs/clock and the only thing I can think of would be 1 Vec2. Who cares anyway; with 1 TMU and even hypothetically 1 pixel/2 clocks fillrate is more than enough for wearables.
     
  5. nAo

    nAo Nutella Nutellae
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2002
    Messages:
    4,325
    Likes Received:
    93
    Location:
    San Francisco
    Using 0.57 as scaling factor per manufacturing node (more realistic than 0.5) we get 0.57*0.57*0.76(half node) -> ~0.25 scale factor, which would project to ~0.65mm2 part at 28nm. I'd say it's pretty good scaling.
     
  6. ToTTenTranz

    Legend Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2008
    Messages:
    9,407
    Likes Received:
    4,057

    To be fair, all architectures in the market with unified ALUs have supported compute capabilities (AMD R600, nVidia G80, all things Vivante, ARM Midgard, etc.). Turns out that if you have an ALU that can perform both pixel and vertex shaders, it must be versatile enough to be used for other compute workloads. My guess is all you need to do from there is being able to send the ALU results to some place where the CPU can read them (unified memory in SoCs, system RAM through PCI-Express, etc.), instead hardwiring the results towards an inaccessible framebuffer.

    Series 5 was no exception.
     
  7. tangey

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2006
    Messages:
    1,406
    Likes Received:
    149
    Location:
    0x5FF6BC
    Ok, but neither AMD or Nvidia are effectively competing in the same arena as IMG. I don't know much about Vivante, but for ARM, the advent of midgard hasn't stopped them continuing on with their Mali4xx series that is non-GPGPU compliant, and it continues to "win" sockets. Allowing for the fact that many of those design wins may be because of things not related to technical merit, the Mali4xx series still gives ARM a set of IP that is neither GPGPU compliant, nor in fact opengles3.x compliant. Given the widely talked-up impending explosion of IOT and wearable, It would appear that this type of GPU will have legs to run, pretty much un-challenged, for many years to come. It would appear to be a "miss" for IMG not to have something similarly targetted. All IMG 6 & 7 series IP Have GPGPU and opengles3.x as a minimum spec, only the "ultra-small" GX5300 is an exception.

    Has anyone categorically confirmed the GPU IP inside the iwatch ? I know it has been reported to have an IMG driver, but I haven't seen anything that says which derivative it is.
     
  8. ToTTenTranz

    Legend Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2008
    Messages:
    9,407
    Likes Received:
    4,057
    Yet the Mali 400MP4 in Exynos or ULP Geforce GPUs in Tegra 2/3/4 didn't show a substantially superior performance-per-watt than Series 5 or Adreno 3xx back in 2011-2012.
    ARM decided to iterate on the Udgard architecture probably because some SoC manufacturers asked for a GPU IP they could sell for nickles, or even bundle for free together with a Cortex A7/A5 core license. Everything you see the ARM 4xx in are bottom-of-the-barrel SoCs.
     
  9. Ailuros

    Ailuros Epsilon plus three
    Legend Subscriber

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    9,408
    Likes Received:
    172
    Location:
    Chania
    There's a lot one could say in favor of one or the other solution, however folks honestly with the market penetration ARM has in the ULP SoC market with CPU IP I would had been VERY surprised if either way they wouldn't has seen any land with their own GPU IP.
     
  10. tangey

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2006
    Messages:
    1,406
    Likes Received:
    149
    Location:
    0x5FF6BC
    Adreno and Tegra are solely used in house, and so they are picked for entirely different reasons. I suspect that for a particular performance ceiling, Mali4xx provides that same performance at a much smaller area than anything that IMG has. Given that the "new" markets of IOT and wearables that in theory are providing opportunties for big volumes of low end/low compliance GPUs, it would appear that IMG's IP portfolio remains uncompetitive for those design sockets.

    But perhaps having mostly lost that low end for quite some time now, in part for reasons that are not on technical merit, they have decided that it is too difficult to get back in, and/or that there is no money in it.
     
  11. Rys

    Rys AMD RTG
    Moderator Veteran Alpha

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2003
    Messages:
    4,138
    Likes Received:
    1,337
    Location:
    Beyond3D HQ
    What makes you think Mali-400 is much smaller than GX5300 for competitive perf and power, exactly?
     
  12. 3dcgi

    Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    2,428
    Likes Received:
    257
    I've heard Instagram uses the GPU for at least some of its filters. You could call this GPGPU as it's not using the pipeline to render triangles.
     
  13. tangey

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2006
    Messages:
    1,406
    Likes Received:
    149
    Location:
    0x5FF6BC
    I'm can only go on the public info of course, but when IMGs ultra-small GPU sector on the website consists of a single IP, quoted at 250Mhz, I assume that's the kinda of region it is targetting. Now you'll know (and I don't) whether for the kind of performance that that suggests, whether it is a competitive solution compared to a Mali targetting the same performance. I'm guessing from your response that it is :).

    However ARM have a range of Mali4xx, and I think I'm making a fair assumption that this allows them to target systems that have a relatively much high performance requirement, but still do not required much in terms of conformancy. Once IMG get to the ceiling of GX5300, the next IP up has opengles3.0 and GPGPU conformancy. It is this situation I was talking about when I said

    I didn't mean all situations, just ones that Mali4xx can address but GX5300 can not.

    I could of course well be talking out of my ass, and adding 2+2 and not getting 4, but the evidence that GX5300 does not support 3.0 or GPGPU leads me to conclude that excluding those was part of reducing it's footporint. If you are telling me that GX5300 can scale performance wise to match any Mali4xx implementation, and still keep it's size advantage, then...I'll just go and hide somewhere.
     
    #13 tangey, Jan 8, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2016
  14. Rys

    Rys AMD RTG
    Moderator Veteran Alpha

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2003
    Messages:
    4,138
    Likes Received:
    1,337
    Location:
    Beyond3D HQ
    The market has generally moved on to OpenGL ES 3.0 as the baseline, dragged along mostly by Android. For markets where area and power is the paramount concern, not the base feature level (or in many cases performance), GX5300 exists.

    We don't really see much demand for the middle ground at all now, where ES 2.0 is fine but higher performance is needed (at higher area), and Mali-400 or Mali-450 MPs 2-8 are being designed in. As soon as you're considering an MP2+ Mali-4xx, we have ES 3.0 cores at competitive PPA to offer.

    There isn't some magical ground that only Mali-4xx is a solution for, that's being designed today, that PowerVR can't address.
     
  15. Ailuros

    Ailuros Epsilon plus three
    Legend Subscriber

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    9,408
    Likes Received:
    172
    Location:
    Chania
    I for one wouldn't suggest so; I would however note that the idea for a GX5300 or anything similar came quite late compared to the Mali400. Same goes for the IMG XE line of cores.
     
  16. Rys

    Rys AMD RTG
    Moderator Veteran Alpha

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2003
    Messages:
    4,138
    Likes Received:
    1,337
    Location:
    Beyond3D HQ
    XE had to come later, it's Rogue. And GX5300 is an SGX, just one specifically optimised to be as small and as low power as possible and aimed at IoT-esque things. Maybe we've done a bad job of explaining what GX5300 is and why it exists, but it is not a general purpose Mali-400 competitor. The market has moved on, embedded GPU thinking needs to catch up a bit.
     
  17. tangey

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2006
    Messages:
    1,406
    Likes Received:
    149
    Location:
    0x5FF6BC
    Good idea in putting this in the appropriate thread, I forgot I'd started this one.

    it appears rightly or wrongly that ARM sees it different, as they continue to develop Mali, having announced the Mali470 only few months ago.
     
  18. Rys

    Rys AMD RTG
    Moderator Veteran Alpha

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2003
    Messages:
    4,138
    Likes Received:
    1,337
    Location:
    Beyond3D HQ
    Why do they see it differently? Mali-470 is for the same markets as GX5300.
     
  19. tangey

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2006
    Messages:
    1,406
    Likes Received:
    149
    Location:
    0x5FF6BC
    Because of this:-
    Are you saying quad-core Mali470 markets are generally serviceable by GX5300 ?
     
  20. Rys

    Rys AMD RTG
    Moderator Veteran Alpha

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2003
    Messages:
    4,138
    Likes Received:
    1,337
    Location:
    Beyond3D HQ
    I'm saying that Mali-470MP4 markets probably don't exist. Just because a config is possible doesn't mean you'll ever see it. T760MP16, T658, T678, T720MP8....you get the picture.
     
Loading...

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Beyond3D has been around for over a decade and prides itself on being the best place on the web for in-depth, technically-driven discussion and analysis of 3D graphics hardware. If you love pixels and transistors, you've come to the right place!

    Beyond3D is proudly published by GPU Tools Ltd.
Loading...