PowerVR encrypted texture data?

Discussion in 'Architecture and Products' started by Ailuros, Jul 18, 2003.

  1. Ailuros

    Ailuros Epsilon plus three
    Legend Subscriber

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    9,445
    Likes Received:
    181
    Location:
    Chania
  2. MfA

    MfA
    Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2002
    Messages:
    7,139
    Likes Received:
    577
    So will programs for this device be prevented from reading back the framebuffer?
     
  3. rotten

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2003
    Messages:
    39
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Uk, Staffordshire
    i dont get it Ail...
    where would that b used :?: :?: :?:
     
  4. tb

    tb
    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    241
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Germany / Thuringia
  5. Basic

    Regular

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2002
    Messages:
    846
    Likes Received:
    13
    Location:
    Linköping, Sweden
    Interesting reading.

    I can't comment on the cryptographical strength of the system. But I can say one consequence:
    Bye bye to compressed textures (other than DXTC and other methods that is local and stay completely within the chip). So you can't have lots of jpeg textures that is decompressed when a level loads.
     
  6. Malo

    Malo Yak Mechanicum
    Legend Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2002
    Messages:
    7,619
    Likes Received:
    3,684
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    forgive my naivity but what do compresed textures have to do with encryption? why would compressed textures not be viable anymore?
     
  7. Xmas

    Xmas Porous
    Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2002
    Messages:
    3,314
    Likes Received:
    140
    Location:
    On the path to wisdom
    Basic means lossy compression on disk. Obviously you can't use lossy compression on data that is to be decrypted by the GPU.
     
  8. Malo

    Malo Yak Mechanicum
    Legend Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2002
    Messages:
    7,619
    Likes Received:
    3,684
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    ah ok thanks for clarification.
     
  9. Basic

    Regular

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2002
    Messages:
    846
    Likes Received:
    13
    Location:
    Linköping, Sweden
    Yes, Xmas got what I meant.
    You can't use lossy compression on encrypted data, beacuse it will destroy the data completely.
    Furthermore, if the encryption is worth anything, you can't use lossless compression on the encrypted data either. Well you can, but the data won't be smaller after the compression.

    A good encryption will convert the data to what looks like white noise, and white noise doesn't compress.

    So the important part is that the compression/decompression is done on the plain text side of the encryption (inside the chip).
     
  10. tb

    tb
    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    241
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Germany / Thuringia
    Don't get it yet. Why not compress a texture at load time or load a compressed texture, encrypt it and send it to the vpu. It decrypts the texture and then decompress it.

    Thomas
     
  11. KimB

    Legend

    Joined:
    May 28, 2002
    Messages:
    12,928
    Likes Received:
    230
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    I'm not sure why not. Just encrypt the already-compressed data.

    Anyway, I would just like to state that encryption of textures makes a lot of sense, when one considers that Windows will soon go all-3D. For high-security applications, the video card interface would be entirely too easy for an invader to tap for data (imagine that every window will be its own texture...even text documents).

    Of course, there are other, easier ways to get to the data, but those can also be more easily hidden by encryption.
     
  12. Xmas

    Xmas Porous
    Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2002
    Messages:
    3,314
    Likes Received:
    140
    Location:
    On the path to wisdom
    And which GPU does JPEG decompression?
    Yes, it would be possible to DXTx-compress a texture, encrypt it and store it on disk. But you cannot use any non-hardware supported compression scheme for storage.
     
  13. Ailuros

    Ailuros Epsilon plus three
    Legend Subscriber

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    9,445
    Likes Received:
    181
    Location:
    Chania
    That's why I posted it here, in order to get -if it's possible- an answer from SimonF himself.

    Until he or someone else from the company replies though, I can only rely on my own lucky guestimates.

    One good candidate in my mind would be the MBX chips for PDA/mobiles. I don't know what companies exactly intend to do with it, but since it has strong 3D capabilities for it's size, I'd think of cases like let's say downloadable applications/games from the Internet for those devices (game ports to be exact). There it makes even more sense to attempt to build in an effective copy protection scheme.

    Could be completely wrong though, so don't count on it.
     
  14. Ailuros

    Ailuros Epsilon plus three
    Legend Subscriber

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    9,445
    Likes Received:
    181
    Location:
    Chania
    Might be a dumb question, but does that apply for PVR-TC too?
     
  15. Arun

    Arun Unknown.
    Moderator Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2002
    Messages:
    5,023
    Likes Received:
    302
    Location:
    UK
    IMO, this is a very good concept.

    I think a very interesting quote recently was one of David Kirk - stating that a certain company managed to use their GeForce FX GPU ( 5800 one, that is, or maybe Quadro equivalent ) to reorder a database - and that it was *5* times faster than on a Pentium 4!

    But if you're beggining to use that type of applications with GPUs, you obviously may want more security - Chalnoth's "imagine that even text documents are a texture" seems a little strange, I doubt MS will go that way - but I'm sure there could be security issues.


    Uttar
     
  16. Simon F

    Simon F Tea maker
    Moderator Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2002
    Messages:
    4,560
    Likes Received:
    157
    Location:
    In the Island of Sodor, where the steam trains lie
    Well I was going to say "haven't you got anything better to do?" but you pre-empted me :)
    Preferably, yes, since that could reduce the strength of the scheme, but it would not be mandatory. Of course, since each application effectively has it's own key, the developer could trade security for flexibility.
    Not at all. It's the raw data that is encrypted, not actual pixels. I simulated it with PVR-TC textures and decompressed random noise looks 'quite odd'.
    That's pretty much the idea - as the patent says, there may be no physical medium for the application/game (not that that's stopped hackers in the past) and so electronic-only versions may be very easy to copy otherwise.
     
  17. PrzemKo

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    58
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hmm... maybe it's for military or something. When the chopper crashes, for example, and is not completely destroyed, someone from the 'other side' could extract data from it's nav systems. Crypted textures used in maps would add another bit of security in such situations.
     
  18. Simon F

    Simon F Tea maker
    Moderator Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2002
    Messages:
    4,560
    Likes Received:
    157
    Location:
    In the Island of Sodor, where the steam trains lie
    :shock: :!: :!: :!: You guys must read far too many conspiracy theories!
     
  19. PrzemKo

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    58
    Likes Received:
    0
    Do you think? It's quite common to scoop parts of enemy weapons and reverse-engineer them, but in this case it's more about short-time tactical info. If you have access to a nav system of your enemy, you could find some very useful stuff, like what they know about you, how good their maps are, etc. Crypted textures and coordinates will make that job pretty hard...
     
  20. DemoCoder

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2002
    Messages:
    4,733
    Likes Received:
    81
    Location:
    California
    The purpose is quite obvious: it's for digital rights management. The media industry is attempting to encrypt everything from the time it comes from the hard drive all the way to the moment it goes to your video screen, they want the data encrypted to stop digital piracy.

    To stop future DVD formats from being ripped, the content will be encrypted on DVD as before, but will be decrypted only by a hardwired chip (e.g. GPU or dedicated chip) for decoding and display. However, the output from the display will be reencrypted and only your monitor can decrypt it. This prevents digital capture and thus the only way to pirate is to point a video camera at the screen.

    Already HDTV displays are shipping with DVI HDCP connectors and there are DVD players that have HDCP out, so that the DVD and HDTV have a private encrypted channel for data.
     
Loading...

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Beyond3D has been around for over a decade and prides itself on being the best place on the web for in-depth, technically-driven discussion and analysis of 3D graphics hardware. If you love pixels and transistors, you've come to the right place!

    Beyond3D is proudly published by GPU Tools Ltd.
Loading...