Plasma TV as the primary computer monitor

[Mintmaster]

Has anyone ever tried this?

I'm thinking of using a 42" 1080p plasma as a computer monitor from a distance of maybe 4-5 feet instead of the usual 20-24" from 2-3 feet. I've never really liked LCD for several reasons, but plasmas are so black and so cheap now that this is a viable alternative. Obviously I'd use it as a TV, too.

Opinions?

 

[AlphaWolf]

how much would image retention bug you?

 

[Mintmaster]

Hmm, it probably would bug me a fair amount.

I thought that problem is gone in current plasmas. Would, say, 5 hours per day of desktop usage be enough to show a problem within 5 years? I've used a Viewsonic CRT for the last 7 years, and I haven't see anything that bugs me there. Not sure how apt the comparison is.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Hmm, it probably would bug me a fair amount.

I thought that problem is gone in current plasmas. Would, say, 5 hours per day of desktop usage be enough to show a problem within 5 years? I've used a Viewsonic CRT for the last 7 years, and I haven't see anything that bugs me there. Not sure how apt the comparison is.

You can get the image retention out so nothing is permanent on the new plasma's, but if you run with a window open for 8 hours and then want to switch to gaming or watching TV immediately you might have a problem.

 

[Mintmaster]

Oh, okay, then it's probably not a big deal. What kind of time scale are we talking about for getting the retention out?

 

[AlphaWolf]

This article discusses it somewhat

A lot is going to depend on your intended use, and I believe the problem with image retention is greatly reduced if you do a proper break in. I believe kyleb had some info posted on these forums also.

 

[AlNom]

My own experience using my samsung 5054:

It's not that bad as far as the windows taskbar goes. I use darker shades all around though, so the image retention isn't too bad. Other than that, there's not much else that would remain static long enough besides a game HUD.

 

[pascal]

Burn-in still is a real problem, but according to Panasonic´s product manager in Brazil you need 96 hours (4 days) of the same static image to have a serious burn-in with new plasma.

Current Pioneer HDTVs have less image retention. See this Pioneer PDP review: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/Pioneer-PDP508XD/

I used to think that plasma televisions are not suitable for console gaming because of the residual possibility of screenburn and their lower inherent brightness (relative to LCDs), but the Pioneer PDP508XD proved to be a welcome exception: image retention was virtually non-existent, and brightness could be cranked up to challenge and perhaps even exceed that on LCDs (not that I'd want to do that anyway).

Once again the superb black level on the Pioneer PDP508XD clinched it for me, bestowing onto the in-game graphics a measure of depth and dimensionality that many LCDs will find difficult to match. Fast motion handling was more than acceptable for me, but some people whose eyes are more sensitive to the temporal fluctuations of plasma cells might notice phosphor trails in high-contrast scenes. If you see these green/ yellow flashes all the time on other plasma televisions, it's very likely that you'll see it on the Pioneer PDP508XD too, though to a much lesser extent... I'm fortunate in the sense that I've never been susceptible to this problem.

 

[Mintmaster]

Do you guys find productivity is unaffected? I imagine I might have shit-eating grin across my face for a while, but it the long term usability I'm curious about. Even though it would be the same in terms of angular span in the field of view, is there anything "weird" about working on a display that big?

 

[ShaidarHaran]

I do this Although I sit 8' away with a wireless keyboard and mouse... Text can be difficult to make out at native res/font dpi, but that's easy enough to fix (at least for window titles and contents of browser pages).

Games lookbetter than I've ever seen using any of my previous LCDs, including the 42" Phillips 1080P LCD my Panasonic plasma replaced (same size and res.), and my old Samsung Syncmaster 214T (best 4:3 1600x1200 monitor ever made, IMHO).

Image retention hasn't been an issue so far, and I am browsing B3D on my plasma as we speak. The longest period I've had any fixed image on the screen for (ff3 open browsing B3D with no other tabs open, nor other apps open to switch to) was about 3 hours, and I did not notice any image retention. I have taken a few steps in Windows to prevent image retention, however. I'm using a lighter theme for XP (light silver) and hiding the task bar automatically.

 

[kyleb]

A lot is going to depend on your intended use, and I believe the problem with image retention is greatly reduced if you do a proper break in.

The longer and brighter each phosphor has been lit, the slower the brightness fades on it. All "proper break in" does is wear all the phosphors down past their initial quick fading phase. You don't rightly need any special DVD or whatever to do that, simply switching up the content to avoid prolonged exposer to high contrast static image elements like letterboxing, or specific channel logos or game HUDs.

As for my own experiences with plasmas, this is my second plasma, my first was a 42" 480p model which I bought not expecting to use as my primary desktop. However, once I hooked my PC up to it and found its scaler handles a 720p desktop nicely, I couldn't go back to my office setup. Being inexperienced with issue at the time, and the display having cost considerably more than the one I have now, I was rather cautious with it for nearly a year before I threw caution to the wind, and not once did the display ever get any visibly uneven wear.

When switched to my current plasma, just for the sake of testing the limits, I used it just as I had my previous display, and played Gears of War multiplayer for around 6-8 hours a day for nearly a week until its bright white HUD left even wear that was visible during normal usage. Then I just avoided extended period of playing that game for a couple of days, and looped a colorful screens while I was away from the display, which completely evened out the fading in couple of days. At that point I was back to playing Gears like usual without ever seeing the game cause an issue again. Beyond that, I did get some uneven wear from too much desktop twice, but that was easily taken care of the same way, and both times were still in the first couple of months of the life of the display. I haven't had any visibly uneven wear since then at all.

 

[kyleb]

This article discusses it somewhat

I just got around to reading that, and it is awful. He quotes some legitimate sources, but then runs wildly into misunderstanding with his attempts to interpret them, which shows he has very little experience actually using plasmas rather than just talking out of his ass against them.

 

[AlphaWolf]

I just got around to reading that, and it is awful. He quotes some legitimate sources, but then runs wildly into misunderstanding with his attempts to interpret them, which shows he has very little experience actually using plasmas rather than just talking out of his ass against them.

/shrug its a bit sensationalistic but the basics ideas got covered

 

[kyleb]

They really don't, The author doesn't even recognize the difference between the Plasma Display Coalition's talk about accumulated electrical charge within pixel walls and the Image Science Foundation study which is an example of uneven phosphor fading; instead seeing them as one thing just because they both use the phrase "image retention". From that confusion, he leaves "burn-in" as some mysterious force that while unlikely could cause the phosphors to "retain the image permanently", rather than the uneven phosphor fading which goes away with normal use as the Image Science Foundation demonstrated.

He even goes so far to expose his lack of experience with plasmas by saying "I see image retention at friends' houses" rather than mentioning any first hand experience of operating a plasma himself. He also suggests break-in is a requirement as if any manufacture states anything of the sort, when in fact it is only recommended by some eccentric enthusiasts. Seriously, he does makes an effort to pretend to know what he is talking about, but the article is pure hogwash.

 

[AlphaWolf]

You're either misreading it, just nitpicking or I read a totally different article than you did. The basics of what he says is mostly correct and nitpicking some of the technical stuff is hardly important, but its hardly important and there's not much reason to discuss it.

 

[Enforcer]

Panasonic plasmas (both G10 and G11) do not display PC signal correctly.

HDMI signal is typically YUV with 4:2:2 compression.
PC DVI signal is RGB.

Panasonics convert RGB (1920x1080) to YUV at the early stage of image processing, and downsample U and V components (to 960x1080).

As a result, color resolution is 2 times lower (to 960x1080).
If you draw 2 red lines - horizontal and vertical, only horizontal will be red!
Cleartype is not working as well (BRG pixel arrangement)

 

[kyleb]

You're either misreading it, just nitpicking or I read a totally different article than you did. The basics of what he says is mostly correct and nitpicking some of the technical stuff is hardly important, but its hardly important and there's not much reason to discuss it.

Nah-nah-nah-nah, you're wrong, and I can't hear you, so there!

Seriously, if you want to take issue with my critic of the article, at least adress the substance of it.

Panasonic plasmas (both G10 and G11) do not display PC signal correctly.

HDMI signal is typically YUV with 4:2:2 compression.
PC DVI signal is RGB.

Panasonics convert RGB (1920x1080) to YUV at the early stage of image processing, and downsample U and V components (to 960x1080).

As a result, color resolution is 2 times lower (to 960x1080).
If you draw 2 red lines - horizontal and vertical, only horizontal will be red!
Cleartype is not working as well (BRG pixel arrangement)

Where did you come up with this? It doesn't rightly make any sense considering plasmas display color as RGB, why would they ever convert to YUV in the first place?

 

[Enforcer]

Where did you come up with this? It doesn't rightly make any sense considering plasmas display color as RGB, why would they ever convert to YUV in the first place?

It doesnt make any sense for me either, but thats what i see right now.

My guesses are:
1) They use HDMI receiver IC with integrated color space converter, so they can deal with only one pixel format in image processor.
2) They dont have bandwidth to process uncompressed (4:4:4) signal.
3) They dont have memory to store uncompressed framebuffer.
4) They want "Contrast", "Brightness" and "COLOR" controls to work (wtf why do i need "color"?)

 

[Mintmaster]

Could any of you address my question about usability?

Do you guys find productivity is unaffected? I imagine I might have shit-eating grin across my face for a while, but it the long term usability I'm curious about. Even though it would be the same in terms of angular span in the field of view, is there anything "weird" about working on a display that big?

 

[ShaidarHaran]

Panasonic plasmas (both G10 and G11) do not display PC signal correctly.

HDMI signal is typically YUV with 4:2:2 compression.
PC DVI signal is RGB.

Panasonics convert RGB (1920x1080) to YUV at the early stage of image processing, and downsample U and V components (to 960x1080).

As a result, color resolution is 2 times lower (to 960x1080).
If you draw 2 red lines - horizontal and vertical, only horizontal will be red!
Cleartype is not working as well (BRG pixel arrangement)

How can I test this? I certainly don't see any lack of color information or visual anomalies playing games on my PC via DVI->HDMI adapter @ 1080p on my Panny 42"