Pirates moan about getting pirated

Discussion in 'Politics & Ethics of Technology' started by Billy Idol, Apr 29, 2013.

  1. orangpelupa

    orangpelupa Elite Bug Hunter
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    its not a valid excuse legally. But game publisher need to answer the demmand. There's a demmand for original game, they did not fulfill it.

    Just like valve said. people that buy pirated games are unserved customer.

    Gamer wants to give their money to the real game industry. But the reality are bad. Those that want to buy original games are punished by DRM and a game that hard to get and cant be returned. On the other hand, those that buy pirated games easily checkout the latest games on shopping mall or online shop.

    Its as if customers want to buy a Honda but if you want it you need to overcame many hurdles. On the other hand, you can find Honde (fake Honda) openly being sold on everywhere and can be bought on the spot.

    easy to buy is a nice thing to curb piracy.
    Its been proven by selling music directly to cellphone and taking payment from cellphone pre-paid credit.
     
  2. MrFloopy

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    If it's bad, why play it? If it's worth playing, it's worth paying.
     
  3. Phil

    Phil wipEout bastard
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    I think this is a very interesting topic. What I guess it also comes down to, is that people who pirate, don't necessarely pirate because they lack the money to buy the product legally.

    So who pirates and for what reason?

    I think you could probably categorise them quite easily:

    a.) people who pirate because they can't afford to buy the goods legally
    b.) people who pirate because they can't obtain the goods legally
    c.) people who pirate because it's more convinient
    d.) people who pirate for ideologic reasons

    I would probably say that a.) are mostly kids aged under 20 who don't have a job and use the computer actively, so downloading pirated goods is easier and essentially for free for them. How significant are they? I'd say low, because even if they wouldn't pirate the goods, they still wouldn't have the buying power to access their share of entertainment legally. At some point, they'll grow out of it too, hopefully. I guess I fell under this category too when I had a modded PSone and had the occasional copied game. Not many, because most games didn't work well or at times didn't boot up. If two many people fall under this category, even people aged above 20, maybe the price is wrong for the market?

    The people in category b.) are probably countries where pirated goods are sold on the open street and it's easier to buy them, then it is to actually find the legal product costing 100 times more. I guess a large majority of people in those countries couldn't even afford the legal thing because it's too expensive. Can't really judge this one, I've never been to such a country. This category also includes people in countries where they wish to purchase an English copy of the game or movie but can not because all they sell is the localised version of it. Some may try import (inconvinient in the digital age), try online purchase (sometimes impossible if the shop refuses to sell in your country) or go for the pirated version.

    The people in category c.) are probably the largest group. They are the ones who started using napster and other P2P networks when the digital age started to boom and everyone else was still trying to sell their digital goods on optical medium through conventional stores.

    Look at the PC software market for instance. I would say, most software and OSs included are pirated. The only products that are really obtained legally, are the installed programs sold with the computer you bought or the software that you can't find illegally.

    Yet, if you look at those same people who now use a smartphone and access/install software through the local Google PlayStore (or the equivilant on Apple products), I would bet that a lot of software is being bought, tried and used. It also shows that an eco system can work where you either install a limited feature version of an app with ads, or pay for an ad-free / feature unlocked version of it.

    The same goes for music I'm sure. It was easier to obtain music through P2P networks and filesharing programs until the music industry started to sell their property through iTunes and other such programs. While it didn't exactly eradicate piracy, I'm sure it came along way of decreasing losses from the people in group C.

    The people in group D, they will pirate anyway, regardless how difficult you make it for them. They will pirate music, movies and games. How significant are they to the business as a whole? Probably a substantial amount, but not that much.


    If you look back at the PC software market and how Smartphone stores are booming, I would say there is a huge market ready to spend lots of money. That includes a market to sell music, movies and games, even other forms of entertainment too. If I had access to high quality music rips legally, why would I waste my time as a pirate to click through malware infected sites (assuming the price and the package is right of course). The same goes for movies too. If I had the means to buy movies as a download in MKV format to use on my own XBMC movie box, I would actually rather pay that then to get the same copy on a BluRay disc.

    The market is changing rapidly, the people behind it just need to realize it. As long as digital products are still sold in stores and not online in a convinient way, piracy will continue. Maybe it's time for the market to rethink it's strategy.
     
  4. orangpelupa

    orangpelupa Elite Bug Hunter
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    sorry i don't really understand the question. So sorry if this answer are not what you want to get.

    They are already paying. But paying to the wrong person. They pay to the pirate, not the game industry.

    @phil
    wow, thanks thats a nice explanation :)
    and yeah, things sold on cellphone really make it easier for consumer to buy it original, not pirated. It has happened on music where CD audio falling down rapidly, then suddently RBT (selling music on phone) comes and music industry flourish again.
     
  5. Billy Idol

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    But it is nothing simpler than buying a game on steam....3 clicks and you have the game?!?

    What do you mean by pirating games is simpler? You would first have to search in the web were to get it...this seems way more complicated than just click buy in your steam browser.
     
  6. MrFloopy

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    I agree with you breakdown of people and the reasons they pirate.
    I also mostly agree with significance of each group.

    You lost me on the conclusion.

    The problem with the industry working around piracy rather than tackling it, is that is legitimizes the practice, and enables it to grow.

    All those workarounds are about making it more difficult to pirate, or more convenient to not pirate. it doesn't change the central attitude that piracy is wrong.

    The only real protection against undesirable behavior is to put such a negative connotation on that behavior that decent people (read most) no longer wish to indulge in it.
     
  7. Zaphod

    Zaphod Remember
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    It also causes innovation and the rise of new business models and technologies. Creative destruction is the way the world moves forward, and we should adapt copyrights to allow for this fact rather than adopt the world to allow for archaic copyright provisions.

    If the content industries had been able to legislate themselves out of every change in their surrounding tech-environment that they didn't like, the world would be a much, much poorer place for it.
     
  8. Phil

    Phil wipEout bastard
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    I guess different forms of entertainment require different approaches. Ultimately, I don't think group D will ever stop pirating goods, just like there are people outthere who will rather break into a store and steal others peoples property. The solution shouldn't center around these people, but perhaps focus more actively arount the most people in Group C.

    I guess an example would be: Instead of finding better DRM solutions to stop people making duplicates, they should focus around how to better sell their goods to the market. With music, this happening (or has happened) already, by music industries embracing digital online stores and giving the opportunity to people to actively buy their product legally and conviniently for small fees.

    I actually wonder: what if the movie industry would be willing to sell their movies on Bluray as a MKV download without any form of DRM for say $20 a file. Are they worried that this would be like an open invitation for some to share it with the world and everyone else would not bother to go to them to buy it when it's hosted on every 10th site? I somehow think this is unlikely, even if the concern is valid.

    With games (on consoles) I think the problem is practically inexistant, because consoles offer some form of protection. The media can only be played on a fixed hardware and as long as the hardware is more or less secured as it is with the current consoles, the software is reasonably safe as well. On PC it is more tricky, but how hard is it to get around a system where the software checks online to see if the key to unlock it has been compromised? With software like this, you are only really going to get by it by using a cracked version of it - and finding cracked versions of anything really is a pain in the ass. Maybe the reality on games on PC is just that the market of people actively using a PC to game is just too small? If the target audience of your game is the Group A or D of people, then there just isn't a valid market to sell it to. Not on the PC anyway.
     
  9. MrFloopy

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    There is plenty of scope for new business models and we see them all the time. Business models do not change the concept of content ownership one bit.
     
  10. MrFloopy

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    Are you also suggesting that copyright law should not be modified to account for new technology?
    Only books should be covered then?

    Tell me which part of current copyright law is antiquated and why.
     
  11. Zaphod

    Zaphod Remember
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    That you talk about copyrights in term of "content ownership" kind of makes my point. Laws are made (or ideally they should be) to serve society as a whole, not protect particular interests. In particular when those have always acted no better than Luddites.
     
  12. orangpelupa

    orangpelupa Elite Bug Hunter
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    here the scenario for buying steam games
    1a. Make a credit card
    Take too much time and its impossible to know beforehand the submission will be accepted or not.

    1b. Buy virtual Credit card
    This is very fast but the currency rate are killing

    1c. Buy from unofficial Steam re-seller on gaming forum
    This is the easiest method for impulse buy (for example, when steam sale happend).

    2. Buy the game on Steam.

    3. Wait for days to finish downloading the game.

    4. Tired of waiting, buy the pirated game, inject the game data to steam. Stop the download, tell steam to verify :D

    Just make sure the multi layered DRM did not block the country.

    scenario for buying pirated game
    1. Go to shopping mall or online store.
    2. Buy the game.
     
  13. MrFloopy

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    Do we have to go through this again?

    Laws do serve society as a whole by doing exactly what you say they shouldn't: protecting particular interests.
    Property rights laws protect and define an individuals right to ownership. This benefits society as it allows for the retaining of value.

    The ability to retain value is important as it means we don't have to have a direct exchange of goods or services when trading among other benefits e.g. You don't have to fortify your home to stop marauding squatters from taking it from you in your sleep. I don't have to teach the butchers kid maths while she cuts and wraps my roast.

    Now if you want to redesign global society and the fundamental basis of our legal and economic systems, I suspect that's a bit beyond the scope of this discussion.

    Your last sentence is not an argument, its just name calling.
     
  14. Zaphod

    Zaphod Remember
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    It really, really isn't. On needs only a cursory glance at their history to substantiate it. The content industries have had to be dragged kicking and screaming through every technological breakthrough since the player piano. And the irony is that most of their biggest successes, they've initially vehemently opposed.
     
  15. Billy Idol

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    ??? Which country do you live in?!!

    Here, everyone already has a credit card. Put in the credit card number once in Steam. After this...three clicks! Which mall sells pirated games??
     
  16. MrFloopy

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    I'd be interested in some cursory examples of what you mean and the successes it lead to and how that relates to the original proposition that content ownership is legitimate and should be protected.
     
  17. Zaphod

    Zaphod Remember
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    Well, let's start early with the wicked player piano. Had they succeeded there, no record industry. And how about home taping? Did it kill music or expand the market? Or what about the video tape? Would it have existed if tape recorders had been outlawed? Would DVD?

    And the whole Internet is one gigantic copyright violation by its very technical core. (And I'm not talking about actual piracy here.) Had we enforced the letter of the law there would be no World Wide Web. Even ignoring those particular aspects, Google built their entire company on services that were technically infringing.

    Oh, and again with the ownership thingy. Copyrights are not ownership. They are copyrights. Ignoring the distinction does not make it go away.
     
  18. Daozang

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    Not all countries in the world have DSL and cable...
    He's saying, that even though it's a lot more convenient to buy a game from his local pirate shop, (we used to have those in the 90s), even if you want to be legal, it's better to buy both on Steam and the pirate version, so as not to wait for days for a lengthy download to finish in order to play your game...
     
  19. Billy Idol

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    Hm, but then why so complicated. Just go to the next mall and buy a legal copy??!
     
  20. MrFloopy

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    Ok. Let's go:

    You wont get an argument from me that the means to infringe is not illegal and shouldn't be. Only infringement should be. This however goes against your argument that they are Luddites. Luddites resist change. My experience has been that content owners are usual proactive in change to copyright law.

    None of those examples address the ownership of the original work and the exclusive right to exploit it.
    They are examples of attempts to assign ownership beyond the original work which is wrong and has been thwarted continually.

    Please explain this one, it sounds fascinating.

    Copyrights are not ownership, they are copyrights? Come on you can do better than that.

    Ownership is the assignment of rights to a property. Copyright is the assignment of exclusive rights to a work. Please explain how this is not ownership.
     
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