Pinball: Next Gen

[Arwin]

Zen Pinball 2 and Pinball Arcade both seem to be coming to PSN this week, which is awesome. Of course in a sense they're just basic ports and it will be interesting to see what, if any, improvements they have. Pinball Arcade apparently supports mostly real-time lighting now, and that looks much better. I haven't seen yet if/what the upgrades are to the Zen Pinball 2 tables, but there are likely to be some, as there's a smaller number of tables initially available (though you never know, could be licencing as well - they have a good reputation for pushing hardware and features though, with 3D support on the PS3 version)

 

[Sigfried1977]

The best thing about the Zen offering on PS4 is that it'll be free for everyone who already owns it on a PS3 and/or Vita. Unlike with the TPA, the Zen stuff is usually very polished too. That said, I still think the designs of the real machines handily beat the confusing and lane-tastic Zen stuff.

 

[Arwin]

Which Zen tables did you try? I tried basically all of them, and there's some pretty awesome stuff in there. I actually think real machines are very often very disappointing in terms of design. There are some really nice and original ones, but they are frequently balanced very badly.

 

[Sigfried1977]

I bought them all. I just don't like the rule sets most of the time. I also vastly prefer how most real tables handle progression. On Zen tables you're either playing perfectly or you're failing. No middle ground in between. On a real machine you'll eventually reach Wizard mode as long as you can start the missions. You'll be missing out on some hefty multipliers if you don't complete them, but you can still score decent points that way and have a fun time. On Zen tables you either complete all the goals perfectly or you're getting nowhere, and I just think that's rather frustrating.

 

[joker454]

It's no secret that I'm a huge fan of Pinball Arcade. They emulated many of the classic tables going back decades and keep adding more all the time, pure awesomeness. They just released the season 3 table pack starting with Fish Tales, another classic table. I can't recommend it strongly enough to fans of pinball, especially if you grew up playing pinball in the 80s and 90s.

 

[deathindustrial]

Having to buy all my tables again for PS4 is a big turnoff, especially considering the poor track record Fairsight has for fixing bugs. For example, I don't think they ever fixed Black Hole and that's one of the first games they ever released on PS3.

Cheers

 

[Sigfried1977]

I just wished the TPA tables were moe consistent. The PS3 game feels entirely different from the Vita version which again feels different from the version I tried on my Android phone. Both the Vita and PS3 versions are kinda shit shows in their own right. On the PS3 I have unbearable flipper lag, while the Vita version looks like ass and has huge framerate problems on half of the tables. Maybe they've bitten off more than they could chew when deciding to release the games on just about any and all platforms under the sun. The Zen stuff can feel rather over-designed, but it's also very slick and polished by comparison.

I'm also curious what the new Zen table is going to be. I'm hoping for an original creation for a change. I'm a bit tired of badly modelled comic book figurines flyin around the tables.

 

[Brad Grenz]

Zen on PS4 got pushed back to next week, but the new Dr Strange table is still coming out today on PS3/Vita.

 

[Arwin]

Zen on PS4 got pushed back to next week, but the new Dr Strange table is still coming out today on PS3/Vita.

Crap. Oh Well.

EDIT: we're stil getting tomorrow? 3D support confirmed ...

http://blog.eu.playstation.com/2013/12/17/zen-pinball-2-launches-on-ps4-tomorrow/

Also, interesting that if you want a table you buy to be available on PS3 and PS4, you should buy the PS3 version. This will unlock the PS4 version as well. But the other way around is apparently not possible ...

 

[Arwin]

I bought them all. I just don't like the rule sets most of the time. I also vastly prefer how most real tables handle progression. On Zen tables you're either playing perfectly or you're failing. No middle ground in between. On a real machine you'll eventually reach Wizard mode as long as you can start the missions. You'll be missing out on some hefty multipliers if you don't complete them, but you can still score decent points that way and have a fun time. On Zen tables you either complete all the goals perfectly or you're getting nowhere, and I just think that's rather frustrating.

I think on a real machine that makes some sense, because you are limited to quarters. On Zen, you're paying about 3 credits a table, and then have infinite play. Many missions still give you plenty of points for getting somewhere in the mission even if you don't complete it, but Wizard mode for those tables that support it requires actual completion of the missions. That's perfectly fine with me - it gives the tables more depth and challenge, and in the end it's already easy enough by virtue of now being a video game.

And since the tables are (generally) far more balanced than most real tables, it all works out quite well imho. Yes, you can play some tables without getting anywhere, but that's basically your own fault (which again, makes it seem fair). There's a good logic in most tables where you can work to get the kickbacks activated so that when the bad-luck thing happens you built up that failsafe, etc. I like it a lot.

I just played both games back-to-back, and the difference is ridiculous. The UI is crazy bad on Pinball Arcade. I also don't understand the ball physics - they make no sense to me at all.

To each their own, but Zen Pinball 2 remains king for me. I got all tables nicely transferred. They look proper 1080p, with some updated textures, and particularly the new Dr Strange table looks pretty nice.

However, this is definitely just a port of the Zen Pinball engine as it runs on PS3 as far as I can tell (3D included, haven't tested that yet). The tables could definitely look with some more advanced light and shadow tech. Hope that will eventually make it in there, though I can understand that would be hard to support over so many different platforms.

 

[Sigfried1977]

I think that physics-wise in particular, TPA actually annihilates Zen2. A lot of shots in Zen feel more canned than actually based on a physics model. You hardly ever get into those lovely frantic situations where the ball goes completely nuts on a Zen table. It's all rather sedate. The limpness of the bumpers is contributing to that as well. Very little side-to-side action in Zen tables. To Zen's credit: there are a couple of advanced flipper techniques - drop catches above all else - that simply do not work on TPA.
You're of course 100% right about the UI and other aspects of the presentation. Zen Pinball just looks more professional (the orginal art they produced for most of the older tables is absolutely terrible, though)

By the way, I think TPA is absolutely wonderful on the PS4, and for the first time It looks properly gorgeous as well. The fact that I had to pay for the tables again felt like a slap in the face at first, but in Farsight's defense, the visual upgrade from the PS3 to the PS4 game is actually enormous. Zen 2 on the PS4on the other hand is just regular-ass Zen 2 running at twice the resolution.

I still don't know what you mean by Zen being more balanced, by the way.

 

[Arwin]

I mean that the Zen tables are all designed as modern video-game tables, with quarter-munching not being one of the motivations in design. They can make a noob-friendly table like Plants vs Zombies in a way that would never have been possible on a real table, for instance. They can design the tables like actual games.

I do understand what you mean with that there is little unpredictable in Zen in that there is no absolute chaos in the bouncing (no ticks against the glass, ball extremely rarely gets stuck anywhere) and everything seems very controlled, but at the same time, the ball moves quite convincingly regardless. If you start looking for actual flaws in the simulation, I don't find many.

I think the Zen guys did agree that there aren't very many agressive bumpers in the game, but that also contributes to fewer balls disappearing down the side lanes. So that could be a choice - but I vaguely recall an interview with one of the Zen guys on this, mentioning that was a more common criticism.

What is your absolute favorite table at the moment in Pinball Arcade? Then I'll buy that one and give it another look.

EDIT: found a very recent interview, confirming that Zen Pinball 2 is a port:

The game is basically a juiced up port, but we did make major gains in performance, running 1080p @ 60 FPS!Feature wise, you will have to wait for the next iteration of the platform. I guess I keep hinting at this, right?
Read more at http://gamingbolt.com/zen-pinball-2...ance-running-1080p-60-fps#KGe2rzlJ3cdjkDBH.99 #KGe2rzlJ3cdjkDBH.99[/url]

 

[Sigfried1977]

Favorite? Tough call. One of the problems with TPA is almost all the tables come in packs of twos, meaning you generally get a meh-one (likely one referred to as "classic" or "historically relevant") everytime you purchase a favorite. I simply bought the season pass, so I got them all.
Favorites are Medieval Madness, Circus Voltaire, Theater of Magic, Bride of Pin Bot, Tales of the Arabian Nights (that one's free) and Funhouse. Basically all the 90s era Williams/Bally/Midway machines. I just love the layouts, the flow and the rules on these things. I'd probably go with Medieval Madness. That machine is just rad as hell. I think Funhouse is bundled with Bride of Pinbot though, so that would be a great value proposition. Still, go with Medieval Madness.

Circus Voltaire in all its PS4 glory:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=1404966526411893

 

[Arwin]

Actually Medieval Madness is hooked up to Bride of Pinbot ... So I went with that. Light effects are certainly nice. Flipper response seems a bit slow?

Ball weight has to be wrong for Bride of Pinbot. I've played several real tables this year, and this ball would need to be hollow to behave like that. Also, the table is just the kind of sidelane magnet.

Otherwise though these are definitely great table designs. I liked some of the earlier sets I bought on Vita too.

Went straight back to Zen now to compare. I actually miss the much more Pinball table like lighting that Pinball Arcade has. On the other hand, if anyone ever dares to try to argue again that the ball physics are better in Pinball Arcade ... In Zen you can actually see the ball rotation, the weight is far more realistic, I think that though perhaps bouncing could be a little better, they're far beyond a Pinball Arcade here!

 

[Arwin]

Wow, some of the tables are really improved a lot ... Earth Defence and Fear Itself for instance look stunning, partly thanks not only to better textures but also reflections.

Don't know if my phone and YouTube can do it justice

 

[joker454]

Actually Medieval Madness is hooked up to Bride of Pinbot ... So I went with that. Light effects are certainly nice. Flipper response seems a bit slow?

Ball weight has to be wrong for Bride of Pinbot. I've played several real tables this year, and this ball would need to be hollow to behave like that. Also, the table is just the kind of sidelane magnet.

Otherwise though these are definitely great table designs. I liked some of the earlier sets I bought on Vita too.

Went straight back to Zen now to compare. I actually miss the much more Pinball table like lighting that Pinball Arcade has. On the other hand, if anyone ever dares to try to argue again that the ball physics are better in Pinball Arcade ... In Zen you can actually see the ball rotation, the weight is far more realistic, I think that though perhaps bouncing could be a little better, they're far beyond a Pinball Arcade here!

For Pinball Arcade just like real pinball, use of tilt is critical! That will help you to avoid having the ball drain on the sides too much, among other things. It's so important that I never recommend anyone playing it on pc to use a keyboard, you *really* need a gamepad to have tilt control right under your thumb. Medieval Madness and Bride of Pinbot are awesome tables, I can play them for quite a while but there's many other good ones. I think Elvira and The Party Monsters is my favorite, but that's likely because I played it a bunch in the arcade when it came out years ago. I've played the more recent versions of Zen pinball but I dunno, personally it just doesn't feel like pinball. It's not that it's a bad game, it just isn't pinball to me. The table designs, goals, the feel, the flow, the table dimensions, the art, etc, none of it feels right. But then again that may be just because I grew up on pinball from the 80s and onward, so Zen may never feel right to me. But to each their own, I'd suggest people try both and go with whatever flips their frog.

 

[Arwin]

I think what held Zen Pinball back with some pinball fans is that the first four tables are the worst. The PS4 has one free table at the moment, not the best looking but it's a fun table, try it if you can.

Uploaded some gameplay to facebook yesterday. They need to work on the quality though ... It looks better if I upload captures with my iPhone imho.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=724823560861063
Medieval Madness - I got a lot of special events right away. There's a sound bug that plays the lowest phone samples btw, dev already confirmed that will be fixed.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=724823560861063
(Dr Strange isn't the best Zen table by far though, just the newest addition)

 

[Sigfried1977]

I think what held Zen Pinball back with some pinball fans is that the first four tables are the worst.

Depends who you're asking. Tesla in particular seems to be one of the most beloved tables of them all.

Either way, I'm siding with Joker on the issue: between the flow, the layouts, the progression, the sound design and the art - something about the Zen stuff just feels a little off to me. Maybe it's just nostalgia for the real deal on my part. Besides, it's not like I dislike the Zen tables. After all I did buy 'em all.

 

[Cyan]

Favorite? Tough call. One of the problems with TPA is almost all the tables come in packs of twos, meaning you generally get a meh-one (likely one referred to as "classic" or "historically relevant") everytime you purchase a favorite. I simply bought the season pass, so I got them all.
Favorites are Medieval Madness, Circus Voltaire, Theater of Magic, Bride of Pin Bot, Tales of the Arabian Nights (that one's free) and Funhouse. Basically all the 90s era Williams/Bally/Midway machines. I just love the layouts, the flow and the rules on these things. I'd probably go with Medieval Madness. That machine is just rad as hell. I think Funhouse is bundled with Bride of Pinbot though, so that would be a great value proposition. Still, go with Medieval Madness.

Circus Voltaire in all its PS4 glory:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=1404966526411893

your list made me recall some good memories. I was so much into pinball machines...

I had many favourites but in order to be concise Funhouse and Jurassic Park were my absolute favourites.

As for Zen, Pinball FX and Pinball FX2 are both excellent games. I prefer Williams Pinball Classics on the Xbox 360 though, as it has Funhouse, Medieval Madness and a few other great pinball machines.

I didn't know Pinball Arcade was on the Xbox 360, how could I miss it? I still have the console, but I am not keen on buying new games for it. Hope ther

Additionally, I haven't played Cirqus Voltaire on any console. I played it on Visual Pinball for the PC, the Scapino rendition -he was the best at rendering graphics-. Mr. Pacman also had excellent recreations of some machines.

Apart from the classics one of my favourites was Attack from Mars by Capcom, I fancied the art style.

 

[blakjedi]

funhouse. my favorite pinball machine ever.