Picture of Sega's 3Dfx-based 'BlackBelt' console

3Dfx based Sega BlackBelt
Blackbelt.jpg


assuming this is real, this is the console designed by SoA, SegaSoft and 3Dfx that LOST to the Dural/Katana/Dreamcast.

circa 1997.

found it in this assembler thread

http://www.assemblergames.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=170


cool find huh 8) :oops:
 
It looks just bad, and the recessed joypad ports are a disaster from an ergonomic standpoint. Assume this thing stands on a knee-high bench or something, you'd have to lean way down to find where to stick the connector for your pad... Idiotic. It doesn't even hide the "unsightly" ports when one is sitting down in front of the TV. Simply bad design, lucky us it never got made.

Oh, and it's friggin HUGE too by the looks of it, nowhere near the slender thing that is the DC. Must all American-designed consoles follow the "bigger is better" school of thought? :rolleyes:


:LOL:
 
Looks like this dreamcast had a reset button, only two controller ports, and possibly a cart drive on top? Play old genesis games on it maybe? Or plug in a 2nd graphics card in a sli sort of way and have a dreamcast sli? Maybe that was the hardware upgrade I heard about for the dreamcast....

BTW, why is the M2's pad a rip off of the n64's?
 
Looks like this dreamcast had a reset button, only two controller ports, and possibly a cart drive on top? Play old genesis games on it maybe? Or plug in a 2nd graphics card in a sli sort of way and have a dreamcast sli? Maybe that was the hardware upgrade I heard about for the dreamcast....

well it looks like BlackBelt did have a cartridge slot ala Saturn. probably for RAM carts, memory carts. probably not for Genesis compatibility, but that would've been very nice.

your thoughts about this slot being used for an SLI-style upgrade path is thought provoking. it was stated in Next Generation magazine that the Saturn2 might be an upgrade for Saturn, using the existing Saturn as a power supply, CD drive and I/O device. so I assume the Saturn2 upgrade would've used the Saturn cartridge slot. the BlackBelt might have had similar capability. upgrade to SLI Banshee2/Voodoo3 (the likely 3D chip in BlackBelt) or perhaps Voodoo VSA (Voodoo4/5).
 
Hmm, if it was voodoo3, I don't see why sega didn't go for it. Voodoo 3s were very cheap even when they were new(mostly because 3dfx was cutting their profit margins thin, but it worked out well for the consumers, I think voodoo3 was the best selling retail card at the time, and may still hold the record, though perhaps geforce 2mx or geforce4mx may have taken that over) and probably would have outperformed what was in the dc 9 out of 10 times. If it was banshee or voodoo2 then the choice isn't so clear cut, and would probably break even in situations where one is faster than the dc's chip, or lose out, plus I think voodoo2 and banshee were kind of expensive when they were new, and voodoo3 wouldn't have been available for a 1998 Japan launch.
 
the CLX / PowerVR2DC (specific variant of PowerVR2 for Dreamcast) was much superior to Banshee or Voodoo2, and held its own against the Voodoo3 which was more powerful on paper. It's a toss up between the Voodoo3 and PowerVR2DC / CLX. in some areas the Voodoo3 is faster, in other areas the PowerVR2DC is better.

but there's little doubt the PowerVR2DC is superior in every way to the Voodoo2 and especially the Banshee.


can't wait until Simon F joins this thread 8)
 
Megadrive1988 said:
the CLX / PowerVR2DC (specific variant of PowerVR2 for Dreamcast) was much superior to Banshee or Voodoo2, and held its own against the Voodoo3 which was more powerful on paper. It's a toss up between the Voodoo3 and PowerVR2DC / CLX. in some areas the Voodoo3 is faster, in other areas the PowerVR2DC is better.

but there's little doubt the PowerVR2DC is superior in every way to the Voodoo2 and especially the Banshee.


can't wait until Simon F joins this thread 8)

My main counter argument to this area is that the voodoo3 easily crushed the neon250 in basically everything(especially if we add glide in), and that no dreamcast port of a pc game(and I believe any dreamcast game ported to the pc) ran as well on the dreamcast as a pc with a voodoo3. Now maybe sonic adventure 2 and shenmue were beyond what a voodoo3 could do, but they were the exception, not the rule, and shenmue was pushing the dc harder than it could handle as well, once the framerate dropped below 30 fps, we could say a voodoo3 could do it and also have low framerates.
 
I won't agrue with that really. in some cases, I know Voodoo3 PC outgunned the Dreamcast (in Sega Rally 2 for instance which was 60fps or closer to it on a Voodoo3 PC than on DC.

the Neon250 though, is a weaker chip than PowerVR2DC. Neon250 is clocked 25 Mhz faster but does not have as many pixel elements as the DC PowerVR, IIRC. there are probably at least several other major differences between Neon250 and PowerVR2DC that I am unqualified to talk about (Simon where are you!)

no question that Voodoo3 outpaces Neon250 in most areas. although even Neon250 had 32-Bit color, I believe.
 
And what difference did 32bit color make, especially in those days? Even in modern games I have trouble telling the difference between 32bit and 16 bit color, and back then I couldn't tell the difference at all, especially since most games weren't made for 32bit color. Of course, since the dreamcast was a console it had an opportunity to change that, but wouldn't dc be memory limited to actually do it? I don't think tbr hardware suffers the performance hit, but it still requires double the memory, doesn't it? Anyhow, I think glide would have made more of a difference, from what was in the link to the forum one guy said it translated better to the actual hardware of the voodoo, and I think it may have had lower cpu utilization, which would matter on a console with a slow cpu. Plus glide was capable of effects that couldn't be done in direct3d, or at least not as fast. After the death of glide and the take over of opengl and direct3d, I felt 3d graphics took a bit of a step back, and I've only felt glide has been fully replaced with directx9.(but every once in a while I check out the emu scene, and it's still amazing to see that glide is still the best api for emulation, not only is it the fastest but there tend to be tons of effects that can only be replicated with it and what I believe are called shadow buffers, or with extremely buggy dx9 pixel shading) Of course, powervr had its own api, but I'm not sure how it compared, but I seem to remember pc benchmarks using it were nothing special, other than that they allowed full usage of its features and didn't have visual errors.
 
no question that as far as PCs, the Voodoo3 is better than the Neon250. especially where PowerVR's advantages were less likely to be used. Glided was far superior to DirectX back then, too. but the PowerVR2DC vs Voodoo3 in a console is a tough choice. I might've even been swayed to the Voodoo3 in Dreamcast if it could've allowed for better framerates in early DC games.
 
Fox5,

You're smoking some seriously heavy rose-colored glasses in the last couple posts you've made, I haven't heard such BS in a long good while... :D

What EFFECTS have you seen Glide make that no other cards could do until DX9??? They don't exist!

The Voodoo3 was seriously stone-age tech compared to PVR2DC/Neon250 (these were the exact same chips tech-wise, except Neon250 was faster and had AGP interface). V3 had faster on-paper fillrate, but lack of overdraw elimination and general inefficiency of old hardware pretty much eliminated that advantage, especially when transparencies are involved.

V3 lacks not only the fairly pointless 32-bit color on textures and framebuffers, it also lacks the on-chip 32-bit rendering and one-step downsampling to 16-bit of PowerVR's. It doesn't have modifier volumes either, or antialiasing, or anisotropic filtering. Heck, it didn't even have true trilinear as far I know. On the other hand, it requires much faster (and more expensive) RAM chips on a memory bus twice the width to offer competitive performance, and it runs much hotter too. See what happens to an immediate-mode renderer once you halve its memory bus width; performance dives down into the toilet.

V3 may have been the most sold retail card at the time but that's a worthless thing to brag about; 3dfx was the *only* manufacturer of Voodoo cards at that time, lack of competition made them win that badge. If you were to look at which chip made most retail sales, it'd been the TNT2 instead, which was available from a dozen + manufacturers, hence driving down the sales volumes of each individual manufacturer.

So when you say you believe a V3 would smoke PVRDC 9 out of 10 times, I believe you should reconsider... ;)
 
Fox said:
and that no dreamcast port of a pc game(and I believe any dreamcast game ported to the pc) ran as well on the dreamcast as a pc with a voodoo3.
Run those PC games on a comparable CPU if you're arguing graphic chips (say, something in the range of a 400-500mhz Celeron) and then let's see how well they run.

And what difference did 32bit color make, especially in those days?
A lot of difference on consoles - because it's actually been used from day one. If you want more tangible stuff, texture compression and modifier volumes both made a difference.
And even featuresets aside, I would argue that a V3 chipset would need pairing with a stronger CPU then SH4 was, to work comparably well. As well as more expensive memory.

As for glide, it was just a thinner software layer then other APIs are. In other words, it lets you get more intimate with hardware then most APIs do - but that's pretty much what you get on most consoles by default.

Guden said:
Heck, it didn't even have true trilinear as far I know.
IIRC no PC card at the time did (TNTs used the dither hack too). Then again PVRDC trilinear was as good as useless also - and the games demonstrated that by pretty much never using it :p
 
Fox5,

So I take it you were a 3dfx fan back in the day? I feel like I just stepped through a timewarp to 1998 :LOL:
 
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