OpenGL state on NVIDIA/AMD

Discussion in '3D Hardware, Software & Output Devices' started by DavidGraham, May 14, 2014.

  1. DavidGraham

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    Some graphics programmer made a blog post about the state of developing OpenGL games, detailing the problems with drivers.





    http://richg42.blogspot.com/2014/05/the-truth-on-opengl-driver-quality.html
     
  2. zorg

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    OpenGL is a complete mess on it's own. Better drivers and tools won't help the API. It's time for a reset. The industry have to create a fully new OpenGL.
     
  3. Wynix

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    I think there may already be a thread for this.

    The posts just show how opengl is a mess, even Nvidia is terrible despite them being the best.
     
  4. sebbbi

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    I specially liked Carmack's comment about the state of OpenGL ES drivers :)
     
  5. Blazkowicz

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    Shouldn't it be that? (shamefully taken from wikipedia)

    So you don't have to care about the stuff that was still useful in 1994 and by using 3.2 or 3.3 you can cover the Vendor C.
    But wait, if you're using linux you need a really recent one (like Ubuntu 14.04) to have a Mesa version that supports OpenGL 3.3, else it supports 3.1 or even less than that.

    I don't know what first gen i3/i5 supports as version of OpenGL. Aw crap, information I seem to find about Sandy Bridge says it only supports OpenGL 3.1
    I have no idea if the fuck 3.3 is that much better anyway, I'm just a end user. But Sandy Bridge supports 3.1 == your game has to be developed for 3.1.
     
  6. Blazkowicz

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    Now if you make an OpenGL 5.0 that breaks everything and is absolutely gorgeous and smart, go for it! But nothing will support it, your user base will have shrunk by a ton.
    If targetting Android, you'll make an app for Android 1.5 or 2.2, not 4.1 or 4.4, so that your users can run it.

    It's not like the adoption of DirectX where you now can go DirectX 11 only (with D3D feature level 9, 10 and 11)
    Old hardware gets bitten, i.e. the old DX9 cards have enough DX9 to run the Source engine under Windows, but don't have enough OpenGL 2.1 to run the Source engine under linux.
     
  7. DSC

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    http://www.g-truc.net/post-0654.html#menu

    Sandy Bridge is gonna be a pain in the you know what thanks to Intel's half assed support, hopefully developers will just ignore it and make DX11/OGL4.x class hardware mandatory instead.
     
  8. madyasiwi

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    At least AMD wouldn't be able to afford an OpenGL reset due to lack of developer resources. As the article portraits, they barely able to keep together their driver codebase and seems to be having trouble keeping up with new features as half of OpenGL 4.4 extensions that they claim to support apparently broken. And this is while being one year late behind NVidia.

    Apple probably would also resist the move, I'm under the assumption that they own and maintain largest portion of the driver codebase for AMD, NV, Intel graphics hardware on MacOS. It would be an enormous undertaking to have to rewrite them all.

    And NVidia, having better resource and position to handle the mess than competitor, probably actually enjoying the status quo :lol:
     
  9. zorg

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    I really don't care if anybody enjoying the situation. Because I don't enjoy it.
    It makes me sad if nVidia likes this.

    I don't want to comment anything on Apple. Later you will understand why.
     
  10. Ryan Smith

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    It would be nice, but realistically it's never going to happen. The closest you're going to get is OpenGL ES, and even then that doesn't solve the problem of desktop vendors still needing to support the full OpenGL API.
     
  11. zorg

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    If they want to be competitive they will push the reset button in the near future. In the past there was a Longs Peak project, which is dead now, but the concept was the full renew of OpenGL. It was a good idea, but when the professional ISVs heard that it won't be backward compatible they just say "NO!". Of course, it's business as usual, they have to write a new codebase, which takes time and money, and they know that OpenGL is a POS, but everybody play in the same sandbox, so nobody can make much better program. The only thing changed is that AMD want to be the Big Boss of this graphics business, they simply say: we have Mantle. It's an industry wide rumour that several professional ISVs now working on that new API. It takes time? Hell yes... but if an ISV will support Mantle and the direct competitor don't do that, than you can guess what will happen with them. With this situation the big question is also changed. If they don't want to renew OpenGL than sooner or later AMD will have total control over the industry. Nobody wants that! This will give us hope.
     
  12. Rodéric

    Rodéric a.k.a. Ingenu
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    OpenGL 2.0 Lean & Mean, OpenGL 3.0 Long Peaks...
    They keep trying but always end up failing...

    Maybe Mantle will force them to write a good API for a change...
     
  13. Andrew Lauritzen

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    It wasn't just the CAD folks. NVIDIA actively opposes any GL changes that simplify the API and thus undercut their effective vendor lock-in with "compatibility" profiles. This is no secret... see https://developer.nvidia.com/opengl-driver.
    It's hard to fault them since it makes perfect business sense. But it's definitely not industry-friendly behavior and it should be called out for what it is in standards bodies.

    At this point I'm not sure Khronos has the power to do anything about this issue given their history and lack of a single focused direction. I think it's going to take another platform holder basically forcing people to fall in line similar to what Microsoft does with DirectX to see significant revolution. Sadly it doesn't seem like Valve wants to do it... they would have been one of my top choices given their ability to be developer-needs-focused similar to how Microsoft operates.
     
  14. Wynix

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    Perhaps Google or Apple will see the light.
    Other than those two I cannot see anyone else taking on the challenge.
     
  15. Ryan Smith

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    For as much as Apple relies on OpenGL, they don't seem to be very interested in it. Case in point: just how many versions behind their current OpenGL implementation is.
     
  16. zorg

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    No, it's not. This and the black box GameWorks strategy is hurt us, and hurt the industry. Nobody want to (or should) ship a code that you can't change when it's not as good as you like.

    I don't know if everyone agrees with me, but actually what I want is good tools. AMD do it right, and Intel... well I see they working very hard to make GPA a better program. Actually the new version fix all of my problems, so yes I'm happy with that now. But Nvidia has very bad tools.
    The second thing are the documentations. AMD and Intel has very good papers, but Nvidia... the only useful documentation is the PTX, but that's not a full architecture paper.
    The third thing are the drivers. Now this is really bad, I have problems with every single vendor, and I talking about D3D now. The good thing they are fix the problems, but the bad thing that if I don't begging so humbly they don't do a quick job. Nvidia also always want to use this situation for a strategic advantage, and if I don't want to work them closely, than they won't like me, and my future problems will be fixed slower and slower.

    I think this whole situation hitting crisis level. I'm not an indie developer, and since I talk about the problem publicly I won't name my employer. I don't want to blame someone, I just want an industry-wide change. Many people will say I want too much, even if they agree with me, but I will tell the story why I want this.
    When Valve start to think on a new platform (at that time they didn't call it SteamOS) I said it's a bad idea. But when I understand why are they doing this, and what will the advantage for me and for the other developers, I changed my mind. Not ashamed to admit it I judged too quickly.

    In my free time I made an early presentation to the management, and I said we should support Linux and Valve. In the next discussion we calculated how much extra money and resources we need for this plan, but they said porting to OGL is too expensive. I didn't blame them, because they are right (yes we do this for money, and not for the customers who play our games). Four months later my boss come over to my desk, and she said we will support Mantle, when we can gain access to it. I said Ok, anyway I'm not the leading graphics engineer, I'm just work with him. But she also said if I really want to support Linux they can give me money for that, but only when Mantle is available on this OS. I'm shocked by what she said. I warned her if we port only to Mantle, than only the GCN GPUs able run the program. Of course she known that, but our budget is not enough to support OGL.

    This whole situation sucks, and I think if Khronos won't do something, than the vendors need to create a new consortium and make a new open-source graphics API.
     
  17. Andrew Lauritzen

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    Of course it is, but it makes (short term at least) sense for NVIDIA, hence why they are doing it.

    Even if it makes it "easier" to avoid porting to GL, I don't think Mantle support is going to suddenly conjure up a significant market of Linux gamers (although stranger things have happened). And if you're talking SteamOS I sort of doubt that Valve would encourage shipping things there that only support one vendor (particularly considering that vendor doesn't have a large presence in any of the announced Steam boxes), but who knows.

    Anyways ultimately I agree that the platform vendors need to sort out their graphics ecosystem. At the moment only Microsoft seems to have a good plan. If I were Valve, Google or Apple I would be taking this very seriously.
     
  18. Blazkowicz

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    Here I'm hoping nvidia releases a single slot graphics card with GM108, and makes it cheap. With a small fan with fan control/regulation that works, and 1066MHz ddr3.
    Single slot is needed in some cases (I mean, situations, but applies to metal cases too :razz: ) like small Acer "DTX format" PCs with two PCIe slots, 1x on top and 16x on bottom. Or if you don't want to lose a slot by covering it.

    As it is now the low end is still littered with old 40nm generations (Radeon 5450 and 6450 quite proeminent) and so it would feel a bit bad to buy old stuff to make an OpenGL feature upgrade..
    There's R7 240 and geforce GT610, at best. (no idea about the noise on the few/rare single slot versions)

    Low end market does not feel so great, buy a 40 euros card that is much much slower than a 60 euros or 80 euro one.. maybe have slower performance than Intel HD Graphics 3000 unless you pay a lot of attention.
    Also 28nm has been the top process for long, and it will be a good while till new GPUs (and mobile SoCs) jump to 20nm, leaving room for a cheaper 28nm market. Even ddr4 is about a year away.
    I'm somewhat ranting off-topic, but if you want to write great and rosy OpenGL >= 4.x games you need the user base to run them.
    People did such upgrades/sidegrades a decade ago to gain shader model versions so they can run a DX8 or DX9 game at all (e.g. buy a radeon 9550, buy a geforce 6200, put the card in the slot)
    Can they be incentivized to do that for an OpenGL 4.4 game, I don't know (and half customers run a laptop, where you can only hope they have a Fermi and up, GCN or Haswell else they're shut off and can't do anything about it)
     
  19. DmitryKo

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    AMD has not announced Mantle for Linux yet, and they haven't even opened the specification for Windows yet. And when and if they do open the specs after they sort out early implementations issues, all they should do is convince important game engine guys.

    If five key cross-platform engines which support Linux also embrace Mantle as an option- like id tech 5, Unreal Engine 4, CryEngine 4, Source Engine and Unigine, AMD can safely release Mantle for Linux even with their current proprietary NDA license, and [post=1841242]OpenGL will be dead for Linux gaming in less than 2 years[/post] and no-one will be interested in stupid vendor lock-in policies by Nvidia anymore.
     
  20. Andrew Lauritzen

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    Even if all of the rest of your theory-crafting is true (which I already responded to in the thread that you linked), Mantle doesn't just have to displace OpenGL for gaming on Linux, it has to create an entire gaming on Linux market that to this point has not been profitable or relevant.
     
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