OpenGL set for PS3 Linux?

Discussion in 'CellPerformance@B3D' started by Shifty Geezer, Feb 14, 2007.

  1. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
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    From the GDC Phil Harrison interview at GameTrailers, I get the impression PS3 Linux is set to receive an implementation of OpenGL.

    From Part 4 of the interview (where they fail to show Rub-a-Dub in action :(), about 4:45 in, talk turns to homebrew and Sony's response to XNA. Phil talks up Net Yaroze and PS2 Linux, etc.

    At 5:45 Phil's asked about plans to support homebrew on PSP. His response is the platform doesn't lend itself to that. At 5:57, he says 'Having Linux with OpenGL running on Playstation 3 is the place to do that.' You have a harddrive, embedded development tools in the platform can be made a lot easier.

    At 6:20, he's asked about user created content. Phil says 2 ways. 1 is technical solutions like Linux or OpenGL or other game development enmvironment. The other is to embed that in the game experience itself. 'We support both approaches which you'll see embodied in a product and a service that will be out this year.'

    A product and a service that embodies a technical solution like Linux or OpenGL? Could we be seeing a Linux based development engine with OpenGL support? Or perhaps AMOS rewritten for the PS3? Or somethihg altogether far more disappointing?
     
  2. inefficient

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    We have OpenGL support on PS3 Linux it's just not hardware accelerated. Someone got got Quake3 running with the software GL renderer pretty easily.

    If hardware acceleration is coming it would be great though.
     
  3. Arwin

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    Hardware supporting OpenGL drivers for Linux PS3 is, I think, the very least that they can get away with if they are even half as serious about homebrew support for the PS3 as they were for the PS2.
     
  4. mrcorbo

    mrcorbo Foo Fighter
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    Can't find the quote, but Sony have already stated that they are not going to do this, specifically stating that they don't want to allow homebrew to compete with licensed games. It's kind of important that they make sure that devs can't do an end-run around their royalty scheme. The actual quote should be out there somewhere.
     
  5. Npl

    Npl
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    Doubt it, I guess you read too much from a quote - no offense. Even with HWacc OpenGL its still Linux, its still an OS that you have to carry around without having guarantees of available resources - with little chance of having an effective Copyprotection, without Developer-support, without tie-ins to Sonys "Platform", likely running unter a more restrictive Hypervisor than native game, etc. And on top of that, you only target those PS3 with Linux installed.

    Currently, theres no Hardware-acceleration because of security risk - thought it wasnt clear if that was a definite "NO" or just a "Not yet"
     
  6. Panajev2001a

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    That would not be that much of a problem, the benefit of having a HW accelerated rasterizer with texturing support out-weight the issues you mentioned (which were not THAT big with PlayStation 2 Linux thanks to the SPS2DEV library and kernel module).
     
  7. Titanio

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    I think that quote is referring to user-created-content opportunities being embedded in a game itself in the 'GameOS world', not anything to do with Linux on PS3. Harrison has hinted before at this, that they have some game projects in the works where user-created-content will be a part of it.
     
  8. Npl

    Npl
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    So how much memory can you assume to be free (not used by Linux and the simultan running PS3OS), what are you going to do if Linux itself consumes a couple SPUs, if a (vital )Linux-Process suddenly starts consuming memory/cpu during the game? Its a hassle thinking about anything that could go wrong and it would effect the game as it would be written to use less resources than a native PS3 one.
    Do you see full fledged games, competing with those 20 million PS3 games, but having unstable framerate or inferior performance (Graphics,Sound,whatever) because running on an unpredictable OS?
    Where would those games be sold and how would they be advertised? Im sure they wouldnt be allowed to carry Sony or PS anywhere - doesnt quite help selling them.

    Such games might compete with Sonys "downloadable games" though.

    Im not saying that they arent technically feasible in some form, but given the choice, a developer would be stoopid not to choose the biggest userbase + less hassles. And unlike with PS2 there is not "one" Linux which plays a big part in being predictable.
     
  9. inefficient

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    No one is saying this is a target for professional developers with $$$ signs in their eyes. This is purely a hobbiest platform. People who want to make a little demo or a proof of concept for some neat idea they have.

    If by chance someone does home brew a cool little game that took advantage of, Sony just might pick it up and help publish it on the PSN. Porting a PS3 Linux app over to run directly from GameOS should be trivial.
     
  10. Npl

    Npl
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    Post #4
    I agree with the rest.
     
  11. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
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    He was explicit in referring to both. He outlined two distinct approaches to homebrew, user made content - technical stuff like Linux and OGL, and in-game. And then he said an upcoming product and service would cater to both. Thus he's talking both about embedded user created opportunities, and technical software development solutions. Perhaps those technical 'game development environments' include things like NWN/Morrowind module creators? For me, Phil is saying working with lower-level, proper development tools is something to expect.
     
  12. DJ12

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    Surely though, a game that is running with the "GameOS" and Linux in the background is never going to compete with a fully fledged PS3 game.

    I'd guess at best they'd have 4 SPEs available and even if Hardware acceleration was enabled (which I think Yellow Dog indicated might happen at some point) there's nothing stopping Sony from limiting it in some way so you will always be able to tell a "Linux" PS3 game from a proper PS3 game.
     
  13. inefficient

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    There are 6 full SPEs available under Linux. It's only the 7th that is reserved.

    And of course you will be able to tell a "Linux" game from a normal PS3 game. The Linux one would be the one with the big huge nerd sitting in front of it. :wink:
     
  14. Carl B

    Carl B Friends call me xbd
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    You have access to 6 SPEs in Linux on PS3.

    EDIT: Nevermind, Inefficient on the scene. :)
     
  15. Npl

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    Hypothetically you could create a SPU-Linux, that claims 1 or more SPUs in favor of freeing up the PPU. That would still be Linux, right?
     
  16. Titanio

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    Sorry, I see what you're getting at, I misread that totally initially. That's kind of interesting, but I'm wondering what you could do with a combination Linux and in-game stuff versus just in-game stuff alone, for example. It'll be interesting to see what he's talking about.
     
  17. DJ12

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    So Yellow Dog doesn't touch the SPUs?

    I know they are all available, but I would've thought Yellow Dog would have certain things running on them taking up some resources.
     
  18. archangelmorph

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    I think some people here are overestimating the resource limitations the Linux distro would impose on a real-time game app running on top of it..

    Remember full well that you've played games like MGS3, The bouncer, FFXII, GOW, GT4 & Okami which were full-fledged beautifully rendered, deep and rich game experiences all running on an EE+GS and IIRC only 64 MB of RAM..

    So even if you have less than 128MB XDR RAM+256MB GDDR3 VRAM + RSX +Cell PPE+4xSPEs then how would this "restrict" one from being able to put together a game any less impressive than for example, Halo 2 in HD (from a purely technical standpoint)..?

    If Sony opened up the Linux environment fully to developers then there would be a very "real" danger of even dedicated hobbyists creating very vibrant and attractive software..

    Granted no developer in there right mind would attempt to use it as a commercial platform (purely because of the lack of support and i'm pretty sure their would be legal repercussions ..) but if the platform became "too accessible" (a la PC) then there would be a definite danger of security infringement and of enough medium-ok quality small-scale games, freely available and freely distributed across the platform that it could possibly draw customers away from putting down the cash for the official online commercial offerings, negatively affecting Sony's profit margins...

    My hope is that Sony put together a kind of "XNA" equivalent which could be run directly on the platform/console and allow subscription based membership to homebrew devs looking to develop games and ultimately deploy them directly onto somekind of official Sony homebrew distribution network..

    That WOULD be cool (especially if it supports C++ and OpenGL).. :cool:
     
  19. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
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    It wouldn't. However, those games cost millions of dollars to put together.
    The PC space has had the options for homebrew to produce titles to rival anything the 'professionals' can do. So why don't we see GOW and Okami and Halo coming out in PC forms where it's far easy to create than PS3 will ever be, and with a far larger install base? Homebrew isn't a threat to the industry. Most homebrew attempts at a game never get past the 'I've got a great idea' phase with a bit of poking around. Some get the basics going. Very few of those get past the tedious end phase of tidying everything up, removing bugs, etc. QA and bug-testing is a hard chore and few homebrew efforts have the determination to work through these properly and get a polished product.

    If Sony open up PS3, the only threats would come from hardcore talent - and they could give those guys real jobs. They've shown before that they're willing to do that. Never in a million years is homebrew content going to draw noticeable money away from sales of proper licensed titles, any more than home-made movies are going to kill off Hollywood. The investment needed to make quality titles is going to marginalise what homebrew achieves to the lacklustre and mediocre, with a few rare gems that Sony can take up. The only area homebrew will be successful at is non-gaming applications, just like the PC. WinZip and PaintShop (Pro) are examples of shareware that has done very well. Applications don't need the diversity of skills or complex code of games.
     
  20. Arwin

    Arwin Now Officially a Top 10 Poster
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    One of the things I'd like OpenGL for is stuff like Blender3d, imagine that on a 1920x1080p LCD TV with SPE accelleration and RSX OpenGL rendering. Even with the limited memory, it should still be pretty good.
     
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