Oblivion thread

Discussion in 'PC Gaming' started by thekey, Mar 18, 2006.

  1. L233

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    I can't remember quests that gave you much of a choice, really. Sure, you get to make minor choices in a few (very few) quests but the end result is usually the same, except for a minor difference when it comes to the reward. I see no good/bad/whatever choices. There is really no point of being evil in Oblivion (there are no consequences whatsoever), even the Dark Brotherhood isn't really evil, they just have a different moral compass. Eh, except for that Orc who keep babbling about the kid he murdered. Well, there aren't any kids in the game, so nyaaa.

    Anyway, I am not really complaining about the quests. Some of them, linear as they may be, are excellently scripted. There are some really mind-blowing quests. I'm merely pointing out that the game is linear (as in no branching at all) as soon as you do anything other than fucking around and exploring. And there is zero incentive for exploring or thieving anyway, thanks to auto-scaling of items.

    The autoleveling is retarded. As with Morrowind, I am dumbfounded why some people refuse to see the glaring flaws and worship this piece of crap like it was the Jesus of CRPGs. Oblivion is every bit as broken as Morrowind was, only the other way round. In fact, Oblivion might be even worse.

    In Morrowind you could at least heist a nice item or get rewarded appropriately for exploring a really tough cave. In Oblivion, all you get is the same auto-leved shitloot which doesn't have much of an impact at all because every fucking bandit has the same crap, thanks to auto-leveling.

    There's nothing like breaking breaking into some burgeoise mansion and picking that 5 tumbler lock on level 6 and getting rewarded with a cheese wheel, an apple, a pair of sandals and 7 gold coins. This auto-leveling shit sucks the fun right out of the "sandbox" aspect, which has always been the ONLY redeeming factor of the TES series. Now Bethesda managed to fuck even that one up. Playing a thief and knowing that there's almost nothing good to be found via robbing people because their houses and shops are stocked with the same auto-scaled items you can find everywhere else sucks donkey dick.

    And robbing people and houses for money is pretty much pointless too! Just level up some and wait til every Joe and his dog are equipped with magic crap and you'll be rich in no time, anyway. Auto-sclaing even fucks up the economy, too.

    How can you not see the utter lameness of autoleveling? Being able to kill the Arena Champion at Level 2? Great. Finishing the main story line at level 4? Splendid! Bandits in Deadra/Glass armor? Even better! Or that one time, when I closed one of the Oblivion gates and got assraped by a fucking autoleveled bear with his huge auto-scaled bear schlong... just after I cleared some hell dimension from members of a powerful race of demigods. Brilliant!

    The autoleveling crap can turn the game into a real mess. I recently started a new char and wtfpwned some of the quests at level 1 which gave me a really hard time at level 15 with my other char. Just weak. There was more than one occasion when I got raped by cougars and shit that I used to pwn with ease, just because I was stupid enough to level up on stuff like speechcraft, security and acrobatics. People should not become weaker from leveling up, PERIOD. Having to bow kite some peasant with his Ebony Warhammer for 5 minutes... fuck it. That system is a ghastly abomination and must be destroyed.

    The way the skill system and the autoleveling works just defies common sense. You basically have to spreadsheet game and min/max. Let's say you want to play a spellcaster. You do the natural thing and pick a race with high INT/WILL, which means you're probably low in the other abilities. You happily play the game some and you'll quickly level up by just doing what a mage does: casting spells. Unless, you level the shit out of you minor skills you get shit ability modifiers when you level up. Since you start with high skill levels, you'll max them out before you can max your abilities. You'll end up being a complete gimp.

    Plus, your other stats really suffer. You'll quickly reach the point at which your stats lag behind really far. Your INT/WILL suck because you leveled to quickly on int/will based major skills. You're really squishy and every shit monster can two-shot you. The system screws you for doing the logical thing: picking the skills you want to use as major skills and the appropriate race. Granted, fighters are not that badly affected by this but that doesn't make the system less broken. It's easy to run into that wall of level/skills/ability disparity, which can break the game for you big time. The system just stinks.

    Oh, and the main story line sucks ass. Gee, you're the saviour of the world, foretold by a dead emperor's visions. Only you can do it! Really? Why don't they just send that autoleveled brown bear who kicked my ass or one of the city guards? The city guards not only mop the floor with me, they are also psychic and can teleport! What do you need me for?

    I guess the guards simply don't care that the world's destruction draws nigh... just like everyone else doesn't care. The emperor and his sons are dead. Hell Gates are opening up all over the world, demons ream the country side and what do people do? Live in terror? Engage in one last big sex orgy before judgement day? Spend time with their families and kids (oops, no kids)? Nope, they go about their business as if nothing is happening, like Thieves Guild members giving Imperial Guards tips on where to buy lockpicks.

    Jauffre having the Amulett of Kings snatched from right under his ass? Hail the Deus Ex Machina! And after you go on that huge ass quest to gather support for the final battle at the great gate, after closing six Oblivion gates... all you get is like 10 soldiers from all the cities in the realm. Behold that mighty host! Yeah, the epic battle is barely even a skirmish because there's no computer on earth that could display more NPC models at the same time. Hint to Bethesda: don't try to be "epic" if you can't pull it off. Emperor Martin's "Braveheart" speech in front of 6 soldiers and a lowly thief was kinda ridiculous.


    Some more crap:

    - can still cheese the game with Enchantments. They didn't fix the enchantment system, they merely made it less accessible and kinda kept it hidden, which isn't a good solution because low HP classes depend on that shit.

    - stealth/marksman based chars become less and less viable the higher the level

    - The NPCs are ugly. Not Morrowind-style OMG-kill-it-ugly but still ugly, because of that horrible FaceGen middleware they licensed. It's really hard to create a face that doesn't look like a person affected by Down Syndrome or some creature escaped from the Planet of the Apes. Someone please make a pretty Nord female and post the screenshot here... I'm not sure it can be done.

    - The Faction quest rewards suck, except for the Thives quest one, which is kinda cool. Dark Brotherhood gives you a horse and a weekly income of a few hundred gold which you will never ever bother to collect on higher levels. The horse sucks. Yes, it's be best horse in the game but the problem is that horses plain suck in Oblivion, no matter how ├╝ber. With decent speed/athletics you run almost as fast and you don't have to navigate around every fucking pebble on the ground like you have to do when going by horse. Plus, the damn things are less controllable than a PMSing chick. Mage and Fighter Guild rewards are kinda blah but I did get a good laugh outta that ridiculous looking helmet.

    - combat system still stinks

    - your AI companions are morons who always get in the way. Makes playing a mage or marksman frustrating. And when they get hit because of their own stupidity they berate you.

    - horrible abomination of an UI

    - speechcraft minigame lolz


    Man, how anyone can rate this turd higher than a 7 is beyond me. Virtually every single part of the game is in some form broken, the NPCs are soulless drones who spit the same repetitve crap at you every time you make the grave mistake of trying to talk to one, insultingly bad main story line, getting assraped by rabbits on a high level thanks to autoleveling... meh, at least going through some of the good quests is fun, which makes Oblivion 10x better than Morrowind.
     
    #341 L233, Apr 20, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 20, 2006
  2. KimB

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    L233, if you don't like it, fine. But most of us don't see these flaws you're talking about, or don't think they're nearly so bad.

    The auto-levelling, while perhaps a bit overdone in some places, does keep the game from getting boring at high levels.

    Every character type can be powerful at high levels. I've played all three major types (stealth, magic, combat), and a couple of variations of some.

    I've never had a problem getting the stats based off of my major skills maxxed. Of course, I don't do it until rather high levels, because I don't focus my skill gains, but I haven't had any problems.

    In sum, most of your complaints just show that either:
    a) You are determined not to like this game, or
    b) You've got no idea how to have fun with this game.
     
  3. LeStoffer

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    Hehe...

    I'm having great fun with my Breton mage as well. He is the Arch Mage (of course) and level 18 right now, but I'll get him up a couple of levels in order to get some glass armor. Then it is time to collect some Sigil Stones with Fortify Magicka 50 point and on to finish the main quest.

    I kinda miss the Morrowind leveling system, however. It was just soo great to get back to a place at a higher level and finally be able to kick some decent ass. The loot is also fairly dull at lower levels in Oblivion, but I can live with it.
     
  4. Skrying

    Skrying S K R Y I N G
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    LMAO! He must truely hate it in order to post something like that. For some reason I feel the only way he'd like the game is if its called Gothic.
     
  5. swaaye

    swaaye Entirely Suboptimal
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    L233, that was an epic sprawl you just laid down for us up there. Congrats. I agree about 90%. :)

    But it's still a sorta cool game just because of the modding community.
     
  6. L233

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    A bit overdone? You mean, all the problems wrt exploration, thieving and the economy being pointless or the ridiculous fact that peasants wield daedra weapons don't really matter? The fact that it's easier to go through the main quest at level 5 than at level 20? The fact that a fucking n00b can become the Champion of the Arena, the Master of the Universe and the Godfather of the Cosa Nostra? Leveling is pointless, loot is pointless, exploration is pointless, being a thief is pointless, being evil is pointless... EVERYTHING in the game is pointless. Why even have character developement and loot when it DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER AT ALL?

    Maybe they should have a good look at how Fallout gave the player the impression of actually affecting the world. OMG, I said Fallout... fuck, this reminds me that Bethesda bought the Fallout license.

    What's the solution? Doing away with that supremely idiotic skill system that has always been the biggest problem of the TES series, returning to static level mobs and implementing some measures to control the growth of character power, either through restrictions to leveling tied to quest/story advancement or by making character power predominantly item-driven and handing out the best items as part of the main quest line. Something like that. Basically, making the game less of an dysfunctional sandbox filled with fundamentally broken systems and more of a game.

    Of course! You did exactly the unnatural thing. You held back leveling and maxed the living shit out of your minor skills to get the pwn stat multipliers. And what if I wanted to play a mage and not give a shit about mindlessly bunny-hopping through the countryside to get my endurance up?

    Put one skill affecting each stat into primary, but make sure they're all skills that you won't use by accident--i.e., alchemy, armorer, etc. That way you can control exactly when and how you level. Next, make sure you work other minor skills enough to get yourself good stat multipliers, train up in a major to level, rest, and see what multipliers you got...if the ones you want weren't +5, work some more on your minors . That's incredibly unfun, just like the notion of "working on skills". Maybe you should consider subscribing to the Sims Online. Sounds like your type of gameplay.

    The fact is that the stupid leveling system in combination with the horrible notion of autoleveled content can easily overwhelm quite a number of specialization. And that's in addition to being one of the biggest immersion-killers in the history of CRPGs.

    I had a couple of hours fun, going through the faction and misc quests. Some of them were really well done. Other than that, the game is a fucking mess and please, try to argue that it isn't - with actual arguments.
     
    #346 L233, Apr 20, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 20, 2006
  7. L233

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    Oh, yes. If there's one thing Bethesda does right it's support for the modding community. Both, Morrowind and Oblivion are awesome in that regard. I'm sure the modding community will come up with some kick ass mods that make Oblivion much more fun and fix basic gameplay.
     
  8. KimB

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    Sorry, L233, but I've gone through all this crap already, in previous pages. The arguments have been done, and I'm not going to bother to go through them again.
     
  9. L233

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    You're right, most of it has already been said. I've read your arguments, too, and you simply sidestep the issues most of the time or refuse to acknowledge that they are significant issues. Your main point is that autoleveling prevents the game from becoming trivial like Morrowind. The idea that autoleveling simply breaks the game in many other regards doesn't really cross your mind.

    I think you're still convinced that the TES games a conceptually sound while ignoring the fact that Bethesda doesn't seem able to fix it. Look, it's good for you that you don't mind the problems with immersion, rewards, character progression and internal consistency. That doesn't mean they don't exist.

    Do you really think the numerous 95-100% ratings are justified?
     
  10. Neeyik

    Neeyik Homo ergaster
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    Can we have discussions about games without turning them into abusive, foul-mouthed rants please? They're only games for God's sake...
     
  11. Sc4freak

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    Games > Life. :p

    Haven't read the entire thread up to now, but I'm having some wierd self-shadowing problems on my X1800XT - they're all striped and looks corrupted or something. Is this a game error and appears on all cards, or does this happen only on ATI cards?
     
  12. Snyder

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    AFAIK self shadowing is simply borked in Oblivion, regardless of hardware. (But I'm not 100% sure...)

    Regarding L233's rant(s): Full of vitriol, as always when it comes to Bethesda games...:) But he does have a point.
    While Oblivion might still be a great game I just can't get my head around the fact that it has an average rating of 93% (PC)/94,5%(X360) at gamerankings.com. For that it just has too many flaws. Of course many people might not find these to be relevant, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.
    There are enough games out there that I've had a great time with, which get good ratings but not perfect ones because of certain flaws I mostly didn't see as an issue. (Trackmania comes to mind...). I subjectively might have rated them higher, but I (mostly) find the ratings ok, because I understand that other people might have problems with the flaws of those games.
    But with Oblivion it seems like most reviewers turn a blind side to the problems that definitely exist and might ruin or at least hamper the game experience for some people.
     
  13. Cartoon Corpse

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    sheesh. compared to ALL the games i've played (for the past 3 years). Oblivion is CLEARLY among the best in terms of everything. amazing level of imagination and detail and SHEER content. far far ahead of what most devs offer in the COMPARITIVELY priced ripoffs.

    perfect? perfect isn't even possible yet....if you mean 'perfect' as a microcosm of reality. why even expect 'perfect'?

    pound for pound Oblivion outweighs them all IMO.
     
  14. Gollum

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    I'm really enjoying the game and am amazed by some of the awesome stuff and quests they've come up with, but L233, despite being known as a Bethesda hater and being a bit too emotional about the issue sometimes, has got many valid points! Considering how flawed some aspects of character advancement, leveling or enemy and loot scaling are, the game's review scores are too high. I'm playing a stealth/thief character and so far I haven't exactly felt encouraged or rewarded for doing that. The whole exploration/quest thingy works, but the roleplaying aspect stinks.

    Simple example, there's this guy right across the bridge to the imperial city who has a fish problem. So against my sneaky nature I decide to help him, hoping he might actually be stupid enough to tell me about his hinted retirement stash afterwards. And oh wonder, he is! I was thrilled, so cool of them to think of that! A guy's life savings, that should finally be more than those lousy 7 gold you can find in chests in goblin-infested dungeons. So I steal the key to his stash, sneak into his home and open the chest, only to find a whooping 23 gold coins. All right, that's da bomb! I'm sure he will have a great time in retirement with that kind of money, should last hims days, if not a whole week! Needless to say I didn't even take the money and returned the key unnoticed, the poor sod is off bad enough as it is! :roll:

    Same thing with breaking into rich folks homes. Gee, they got lots of heavily locked chests, but they sure don't stash anything in there that's actually worth taking! This just totally destroys any motivation I've got to actually roleplay my chracter! I'm actually considering turning him into a mage or something before its too late (I'm taking my time advancing and am thus still fairly low in level). It doesn't matter if my major skills are set out for a sneak, as its probably better not to have your REAL favourite skills set as major anyway - to prevent premature leveling. Sad really.

    Still, I'm having a blast with the game despite these flaws. I can only imagine how awesome it could be if all this stuff was actually working as well as it should...
     
  15. Snyder

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    In quantity, maybe. In quality - definitely not.
     
  16. Frank

    Frank Certified not a majority
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    They already did. Check my list of the most important ones in the mod thread here. You'll really like it that way. And the combination of Oscuru's, Adrenalin, Kuro's and Mighty magic is just great fun!

    ;)

    But I agree 100% with what you posted.
     
  17. Frank

    Frank Certified not a majority
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    Did you read the description of this board?

    ;)
     
  18. Cartoon Corpse

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    i installed the boobies one. wonder if you can go full nude? spose so. anyway it was fun/interesting for about 15 minutes...luckily (serendipity?) right after i got a mission (from chick in anvil) to thwart a gang of FEMALE thieves. naturally i had to kill them all and take their clothes. then throw away the clothes. they did a pretty good job with the anatomy. i also noticed one of the thieves, when she attempted her 'con' on me to lure me into her trap (sex in a remote place w 2 chicks) had a shear top on, i swore i could see nipple.

    anyway now i don't bother undressing my female 'victims' unless they are a new specied like vampire...or really old...or something...it appears they used just the 1 model for all the chicks .
     
  19. Frank

    Frank Certified not a majority
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    You didn't play Morrowind with the essential Better Bodies mod, didn't you? Check out the Psychodog Studios forum.
     
  20. Cartoon Corpse

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    nah, i didn'y use any mods for morrowind. never finished the game, though i played quite a bit. spent all the nrg i had for the game trying in vain to find someone with enough dough to buy my 65K exquisite soul gem,i 'accidently' yoinked off a witches table while they were chasing me.

    i think i used an underwear(less) mod for postal2 though.
     
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