Nokia's Present & Future

Discussion in 'Mobile Industry' started by Arun, Dec 22, 2010.

  1. ToTTenTranz

    Legend Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2008
    Messages:
    9,827
    Likes Received:
    4,450
    Eeerm.. MeeGo is Maemo (developed by Nokia) + Moblin (developed by Intel).
    I don't know if there's more of Maemo or Moblin in MeeGo (supposedly, the x86 version would have more Moblin in there) but it's essentially the merge of those two.
    Now that Nokia has announced the end of MeeGo, Intel and Samsung have taken the latest version of MeeGo in order to make Tizen.
    Nokia, on the other hand, is said to evolve MeeGo into Meltemi, which will supposedly lower its requirements in order to replace S40 (in Asha phones), since this last "feature-phone" OS is taking a beating from low-cost Android smartphones all around the world.

    Nokia's "next billion" strategy sucked too, it wasn't only the smartphone division that failed.


    AFAIK yes, the investors can fire Elop through vote.
    The problem is that I've heard that Nokia doesn't accept e-mail or registered mail votes. Only people who are present in the investors meeting can do that, which makes it a hard option.
     
  2. french toast

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,667
    Likes Received:
    9
    Location:
    Leicestershire - England
    Meego,Moblin,Meamo,Meltemi...try saying that as fast as you can!
    My understanding is that Meego (phone) was essentially Meamo 6....Meego tablet edition looked entirely different=Moblin.
    Nokia has got the right to develop Meego (phone) further as long as it doesn't use that name...confusing or what?

    If he can't sell Lumia 900..with all this desperate carrier pushing, free giveaways, $100 rebates..etc etc then the board should make a decision..get rid, and KEEP WP...just have a 2 tier system...Symbian at the bottom, WP from middle up with Meamo having maybe 2 ultra high end computer/phones to cater for the enthusiasts..(aka N900/N950)....Jeez Sammy has got a few operating systems cooking and manages to make it a success..why can't Nokia?

    EDIT;http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/apr/11/nokia-shares-slump-profit-warning
     
    #762 french toast, Apr 12, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 12, 2012
  3. tangey

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2006
    Messages:
    1,433
    Likes Received:
    192
    Location:
    0x5FF6BC
    What were you correcting ?

    You added your personal analysis of the graphs which is a feasible interpretion of the graphs.
     
    #763 tangey, Apr 12, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 12, 2012
  4. ToTTenTranz

    Legend Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2008
    Messages:
    9,827
    Likes Received:
    4,450
    To me, your post sounded like "meh, this was going to happen either way, the only news is that WP7 isn't helping after all".

    Apologies if that wasn't true.


    Yes, I agree that Windows Phone is important to Nokia in order to establish the brand into north-american territory and at least get all the goodies of free positive marketing from Engadget & Co.
    Windows Phone 8 may still become a breakthrough so they should at least keep a toe in windows phone stuff.

    As for the rest of the world, I bet they could just install MeeGo+Swipe UX into the Snapdragon S2/S4 devices they've been developing for WP, with Meltemi (MeeGo again) gradually replacing S40 devices, with all devices having an unified development platform in Qt.
    Heck, they could even go back to Intel and go forth with some Medfield models in a year or so (just in time for that dual-core dual-threaded Atom with a 500MHz SGX544MP2).
     
  5. tangey

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2006
    Messages:
    1,433
    Likes Received:
    192
    Location:
    0x5FF6BC
    you misunderstood, no problem.

    I have heard that Nokia are looking towards ST-E's newer chipsets, the A9540->A9600 (assuming ST-E are still viable), for some higher end stuff next year. But I guess Intel would still see Nokia as a major potential partner.
     
  6. wco81

    Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2004
    Messages:
    6,193
    Likes Received:
    260
    Location:
    West Coast
    Even without Elop, how long would Nokia have held on? He was brought in because they were in trouble, no?

    I bought a Nokia E61i just before the original iPhone was released. Horrible UI but the hardware was nice and they offered a large array of different models. The high end ones like the N95 sold to enthusiasts but for what they cost, they couldn't have been high-volume movers.

    The lower-end Symbians were still smart phones but they couldn't have been profitable.

    Android would have eaten into that market and high end Androids and iPhones would have taken share from the high-end Nokias as well as grab some midrange buyers too.

    Nokia plays up Ovi maps and imaging but it's the apps. that would have trumped it eventually. Sure Instagram takes lousy pictures but it would have drawn people to buy iPhones and now Android.

    Remember the flop that was the N Gage? Well now, games are huge on mobile devices. How many games would Meego or Maemo or whatever have attracted?

    As for WP7, WP8, W8, etc, at least MS will pay to get good games and apps. Probably won't be enough though, because the biggest phone manufacturers who would license Windows Phone have big Android businesses. I'm sure MS will get Samsung to make W8 and WP8 phones and devices. But why would Samsung commit to making huge volumes of these when MS is tight with Nokia and Samsung is trying to expand the Galaxy brand as much as possible?

    Is Samsung going to produce and distribute fewer Android devices than they otherwise would have so that they could make some Windows devices when Nokia is going to be increasingly seen as making the best in class devices for W8 and WP8?

    Remember when MS made Zunes and they were unwilling to invest the capital needed to secure huge amounts of NAND and other components so that they could compete with the iPod? Ballmer admitted as much, that Apple locked up the supply chain and MS just wasn't going to put that much money on the line.

    Why would Samsung or any other Android manufacturer do the same, when Nokia is probably going to be the big volume manufacturer for W8/WP8?
     
  7. Silent_Buddha

    Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2007
    Messages:
    16,046
    Likes Received:
    4,994
    It's a mixed bag. Channel inventory continues to go go down, so they are at least moving phones.

    It also appears that they are supply limited.

    Would seem to imply that they are supply limited with regards to Windows Phones. As considering Elop's past statements I don't think they are planning to ramp up manufacturing of older phones nor are the older phones considered new products.

    The bullet point right above that indicates that they aren't able to charge as much as they would like for Smart Phones and mobile business phones. This is a likely indication that demand for Windows Phone (at least the models they had prior to the Lumia 900 launch) required lower prices in order to move units versus the entrenched iPhone and Android phones.

    That's further re-inforced by smart phones only having a 16% gross margin versus 26% for mobile phones (which I'm assuming are their cheaper feature phone).

    It also notes that the AT&T launch of the Lumia 900 was solid. However, without similar carrier pushes in other countries, it's unlikely to have as much success. Elop tries to imply that it might be having similar success with other distributors, but without naming any, I'm not holding my breath.

    Are any carriers in Europe pushing the Lumia 900 as hard as AT&T is in the US?

    It isn't particularly suprising that their smart phones are facing a tough time in less developed nations where those with money are more likely to go with the image recognition of the iPhone while the less well off are going to be far more attracted to the low priced budget Android phones. The upcoming Tango update allowing for cheaper WP7 phones may help with the latter, but I'm not sure there's anything WP7 can do to impact the image recognition of the iPhone.

    Regards,
    SB
     
  8. french toast

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,667
    Likes Received:
    9
    Location:
    Leicestershire - England
    I will repeat, i have high hopes for the sale of Lumia 900...this alongside HTC Titan2 are the first proper smartphones from the windows phone camp...(that are not mid range.).

    They are both designed well, if not a little thick (why are WP's so much thicker than Android??) wiht some high end smartpone features that should attract attention..so long as the pay as you go price is hovering around £400..then Lumia will sell...thats a big IF.
     
  9. hoho

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2007
    Messages:
    1,218
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Estonia
    What do you think would have happened had they not picked WP, not announced "we are going to kill the part of our business that gives us 90%+ of our revenue and not provide a way to move to new platform" and instead slowly phased out Symbian and move to Meego? My guess is they'd be having at least twice the marketshare today as they actually do.

    As for games, I have some need for speed thingy on my n950. Haven't played it though as I don't really care about mobile games. N900 also had ports for Quake 3 and tons of other stuff that ran on Linux.
    Supply limited while they are closing plants and others are sitting idle?
     
  10. french toast

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,667
    Likes Received:
    9
    Location:
    Leicestershire - England
    Hey you have a N950!? whats it like?
     
  11. Dr Evil

    Dr Evil Anas platyrhynchos
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    5,767
    Likes Received:
    775
    Location:
    Finland
    Imo Nokia did the right thing to go with WP. Symbian was a total dead end in the high end phones. With MS WP has better chance to grow than Meego ever did. They could have handled the transition better. Imo the new strategy is going to take some time to spread it's wings, short attention span people just have to give it time a bit. I believe that two years from now the business will be running fine and WP will have a solid ecosystem. MS isn't going to drop this easily.
     
  12. ToTTenTranz

    Legend Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2008
    Messages:
    9,827
    Likes Received:
    4,450
    Elop was brought in to solve Nokia's execution problems..
    When he came to Nokia, there was no problem with Nokia's "ecossystem plan": transitioning Symbian into MeeGo through Qt.
    There were lots of execution problems because of all the inertia caused by way too many layers of leadership. The first Symbian^3 models (N8, E7, C6-01) were delayed by about a year and the MeeGo N9 was delayed by even more than that.
    By the time the first Symbian^3 models came out, all models were supposed to already have Belle (by then, Symbian^4) installed -> which I'm pretty sure it would have outclassed all the first Froyo models in terms of user experience.




    The n-gage lacked:
    1 - Ergonomics (side-talking? portrait screen gaming?)
    2 - Reasonable distribution channel
    3 - Reasonable game prices
    4 - Games
    5 - User base

    A MeeGo device would sell as many games as an Android/iphone device, IMO.
    It's running the same hardware and the O.S. doesn't seem to be more demanding than the others, so ports wouldn't be a problem.


    Isn't this thinking backwards? This isn't a console..
    First you get a device that people will want to buy, and developers will want to develop for, then you worry about getting games in it.

    .

    Nokia might have been the sacrificial lamb that Microsoft found in order to keep the "Windows" brand alive in mobile handsets, while Windows 8 for phones isn't ready for market.
    If Nokia survives this WP7 fiasco or not.. I think Microsoft couldn't careless.
    Or maybe they do care about getting Nokia to their knees in order to later purchase its thousands of patents and other assets for a nickel.




    The Lumia line is being manufactured by Compal.
    At the same time as they're closing plants and idling others, yes. Such is the path for building a tighter-than-a-hair windows phone.
     
  13. wco81

    Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2004
    Messages:
    6,193
    Likes Received:
    260
    Location:
    West Coast
    The sales drop might not have been steep but it would have been inevitable.

    That is, if you buy the premise that software ecosystem ultimately drives sales.

    The OVI maps and cameras were nice but that was in the old world where Nokia sold N95s. They could have tried to court developers for Meego but did they have the money? MS is paying developers to port apps., just as they paid for exclusives on the 360.

    That's better than the status quo, trying to compete with iOS, Android and a deep-pockets MS.

    Whether they would have been better off choosing Android, who knows?
     
  14. hoho

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2007
    Messages:
    1,218
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Estonia
    I can't say I have tons of comparison material. I've only owned three phones in my life, all Nokias :)
    3510i, N900 and n950. They were all very much awesome in what they were meant to do. The two last ones are very close to being the perfect phones for me in that they are basically just a scaled-down PCs with all the features that I need from a PC. Having a REAL Linux in my pocket for remote admin and sometimes local scripting is awesome, I don't think Android could do anything like that. Having it's 1450mAh battery last for 4 days and nights isn't too shabby either. My only issue with it is that it has no SD card slot and I'd like it to have bigger screen..

    On the usability-side pretty much the only thing I can compare it with is ipad2 that I've used for a couple of hours and found really confusing next to Swipe UI on n950. The phone is just so natural and ipad far from it. In fact I've occasionally given my phone to my 4y old nephew and his friends to play with and it's quite nice to see them being able to use it without needing any guidance even though none of them have had any real experience with phones or touchscreens.

    Because ...? Having QT as the common platform between Symbian and Meego was perfect solution. I've coded in the nokia SDK and getting relatively complex and close to HW stuff working on each platform was trivial.

    Worst thing is Meego and N9 were pretty much complete by the end of 2011. They were certainly not worse than WP7 phones were when they were released by Nokia. Elop deliberately chose not to release it.
    At all times they spent roughly ten times as much on Symbian than on meego, even after they pronounced Symbian as dead. So yes, they did have the resources, they simply chose to waste them.
     
  15. french toast

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,667
    Likes Received:
    9
    Location:
    Leicestershire - England
    Yea the n900 is what the N97 should have been!...the N950 is what i was holding for as the successor to the N900...something i expected to be hitting down around spring/summer 2010 (carrying Meamo 6)..alas it never happened :cry:

    The more i read about Elop the more i get angry!:mad: To think we could of had that phone MUCH sooner is a disgrace...they could have stuck the N8's camera module on there and it would have rocked!!
    I fear a high end Nokia QWERTY will never materialise....Elop can make up for this treachory with one running WP8 with Sammys 4.65 super amoled plus 720p display, Snapdragon S4-PRO, Pureview,1gb ram,all connectivity...plus a 2500-3300 ma/h battery..(Droid maxx):shock::grin:
     
  16. wco81

    Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2004
    Messages:
    6,193
    Likes Received:
    260
    Location:
    West Coast
    I thought Symbian was originally based on a Psion PDA OS, a UK company which had a niche.
     
  17. eastmen

    Legend Subscriber

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2008
    Messages:
    9,975
    Likes Received:
    1,491
    the 900 series is apparently back ordered in stores and has been number 1 for amazon cell phones.

    They really need to get their phones out onto more carriers. HOpefully in the fall they will have a line up across all 4 carriers in the states
     
  18. dZeus

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2002
    Messages:
    125
    Likes Received:
    0
    all speculation on my behalf here:
    You'd need to find out if Mr. Elop's actions in killing off Symbian and Meego the way he did it were due to incompetence (disregarding risk management, betting the house on an unannounced third-party OS), or due to corruption; in other words, if he has a personal interest in having Windows Phone succeed even if it comes at the expense of Nokia as a company and its shareholders.

    A good case can be made for the latter half (Nokia nosediving as it has). Now if someone could find out if Mr. Elop (and/or the Board of Directors) has private dealings with MS regarding Nokia and/or the success of Windows Phone...

    in retrospect it's crazy to have allowed Nokia to go down the road they went, with their importance to the European technology and manufacturing sector.
     
    #778 dZeus, Apr 13, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 13, 2012
  19. Miksu

    Regular

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2003
    Messages:
    997
    Likes Received:
    10
    Location:
    Finland
    I agree.

    What I find puzzling though is that I can't figure out why Windows Phones aren't selling that well. If you read some tech savvy forums the people will say that it's because "there's no dual-core support and the display resolution is only 480x800". But really, do normal people care about the CPU inside their phone anymore than they care about the GPU which powers their desktop computer? Using Windows Phone is most of the times a really smooth experience. Especially the 1st party apps move very nicely from page to page.

    All the hip apps are available for the platform so that can't be the reason. Or is something crucial missing? In a month or so the Marketplace will have 100k+ apps, is it then enough?

    But it has occurred to me that even though the apps look nice in motion, most of the screenshots look like crap. If the phone chrome is taken out from the screenshots, the apps look like they're from some pre-smartphone era. Like this:

    [​IMG]

    Even though I personally like the Metro and the way it promotes the content and the typography, I think it makes for lousy screenshots.
     
  20. argor

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2008
    Messages:
    96
    Likes Received:
    0
    it can always be matter of taste
    like for me personally i prefer android over Windows Phones
    and if android wasn't available then i would go with a iphone
     
Loading...

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Beyond3D has been around for over a decade and prides itself on being the best place on the web for in-depth, technically-driven discussion and analysis of 3D graphics hardware. If you love pixels and transistors, you've come to the right place!

    Beyond3D is proudly published by GPU Tools Ltd.
Loading...