Nokia's Present & Future

No phone OS needs a powerful SoC, it's the apps and what you do with the phone that dictates what it needs to have
Exactly. If all your happy with is going through the UI, looking at some pics..and updating Facebook a few times...then your probably wasting your time buying a smartphone... its the more advanced funtions that take the advanced power....i thought Eflop didnt like 'multicores'?? i thought wp7 didn't need powerfull hardware to 'match' the competition??...so why then are they bringing out those features in WP8..if there useless like he states??? ..smells like money saving BS to me.

Another thing...the lumia phones/WP7 phones in general have sold terrible for a number of reasons...the main one being they have all been over priced feature phones....the buck in the trend??..the introduction of the Lumia 900..with an up to date (ish) screen, up to date (ish) features...including a more advanced LTE baseband..combined with a competitve price point that matches its specifiactions, and suddenly WP7 starts to resemble a smartphone.....Carriers are now willing to back it= increased awareness/advertising = sales.
People are not stupid ;)
 
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Exactly. If all your happy with is going through the UI, looking at some pics..and updating Facebook a few times...then your probably wasting your time buying a smartphone... its the more advanced funtions that take the advanced power....i thought Eflop didnt like 'multicores'?? i thought wp7 didn't need powerfull hardware to 'match' the competition??...so why then are they bringing out those features in WP8..if there useless like he states??? ..smells like money saving BS to me.

Considering that many people only use the media consumption, internet browsing, and e-mail reading capabilities of a smartphone, and some casual games, it's perfectly fine. Perhaps GPS and mapping utilities as well. But those also are just fine.

Obviously it isn't going to be enough for an Infinity Blade type of app, but I'm willing to bet that greater than 90% of the apps on iPhone if ported to WP7 would run just fine.

As for Elop, it's just like anything. It may have been valid when he said it but things are constantly changing. I doubt he meant that multicores would "never" make sense, but obviously at the time he felt that multicores didn't make sense in the time period within which he was making his statement.

Regards,
SB
 
for some reason those low-light environments are where I take most of my pictures, including in trips :)

Yeah I know the feeling :) My Galaxy S2 takes pretty good pics and video at good lighting conditions, but it all falls down to hell, when it gets darker.

As for Elop, it's just like anything. It may have been valid when he said it but things are constantly changing. I doubt he meant that multicores would "never" make sense, but obviously at the time he felt that multicores didn't make sense in the time period within which he was making his statement.

That was just typical downplaying of your own weaknesses and the strengths of the competition, everybody does that all the time. Multicores didn't make sense, because they didn't have them and they weren't part of the WP specs. Elop made that comment fairly recently, but soon things will change and Elop says something like "eventhough WP is more efficient, these new amazing apps require a little bit more power"
 
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Considering that many people only use the media consumption, internet browsing, and e-mail reading capabilities of a smartphone, and some casual games, it's perfectly fine. Perhaps GPS and mapping utilities as well. But those also are just fine.

Obviously it isn't going to be enough for an Infinity Blade type of app, but I'm willing to bet that greater than 90% of the apps on iPhone if ported to WP7 would run just fine.

As for Elop, it's just like anything. It may have been valid when he said it but things are constantly changing. I doubt he meant that multicores would "never" make sense, but obviously at the time he felt that multicores didn't make sense in the time period within which he was making his statement.

Regards,
SB

Nonsense...a smartphone is supposed to be smart....its expensive for a reason...if you want simple games and apps,if you quite happy with a wvga screen, if your not bothered about 1080p this of 'HD' that...fine theres no problem with that, thats all catered for with a cheaper feature phone..no worries,just don't ruin it for the rest of us.

However, if your the type of person who wants the best stuff,(me) the best apps/games/cameras etc..then your unlikely to buy a wp7 device ATM...that bares out in the sales...people aren't mugs:eek:

Its like having the money to buy a ferrari, walking into the garage..laying down £200,000 for a mint looking red one...then the sales man drops the bomb shell its got an engine from a family car and wind up windows!!
..then tells you ''whats the problem?? you will only be going to the shops in anyhow!!'' ...you would probably at that stage tell him to GTFOHere!!
-If your happy tootling to the shops..you don't need an expensive car!!

About the dual cores...put it this way..if you need them in wp8..then consumers needed them in wp7..simple...the reason why theey didn't include them..alongside hd displays is because they messed up..and the reason why sales have been abysmal.

-Note..the Nokia lumia 900 goes some way to remedy that..as it has LTE, RGB AMOLED, FFC, and the contract price reflects its value to the consumer...so i expect it to sell as it is actually good value for money.
...Still pay as you go is listed as £470 in uk!! rip off.:mad:
 
Nonsense...a smartphone is supposed to be smart....its expensive for a reason...if you want simple games and apps,if you quite happy with a wvga screen, if your not bothered about 1080p this of 'HD' that...fine theres no problem with that, thats all catered for with a cheaper feature phone..no worries,just don't ruin it for the rest of us.
That's an absurd definition of 'smartphone'. The definition of a smartphone is that it supports 3rd party applications - that's always what it has meant, and it's always what it will mean. If you want to put performance into the equation, call it 'superphone' or something.

At a fundamental level, you can have a much better experience with an extremely cheap Android smartphone (look at the success of the ZTE Blade/Orange San Francisco) than with the vast majority of feature phones. The key thing to understand is that a pretty good application processor is fundamentally pretty cheap; it's massively cheaper than a decent display or even just the 3G baseband. There's really no good reason for any phone at or above $99 not to be a smartphone going forward IMO. If all you want is basic communication, then get a basic 2G phone, but I believe there's a huge market between that ultra-low-end segment and the people who want 2GHz Quad-Cores with 3D 1080p and GeForce 8800 GTX-class GPUs.

About the dual cores...put it this way..if you need them in wp8..then consumers needed them in wp7..simple...the reason why theey didn't include them..alongside hd displays is because they messed up..and the reason why sales have been abysmal.
I don't think there's any question MS hasn't delivered anywhere close to their expectations with their Windows Mobile/Phone roadmap for many years. The question is whether they're on the right track
 
That's an absurd definition of 'smartphone'. The definition of a smartphone is that it supports 3rd party applications - that's always what it has meant, and it's always what it will mean. If you want to put performance into the equation, call it 'superphone' or something.
Thats not an 'absurd' definition of a 'smartphone' at all, thats what a smartphone originally was..the best of the best...its not my definition thats wrong..its the fact that like you rightly point out, lower end phones are now getting 'advanced' features..blurring the lines somewhat, i don't know where you got that '3rd party apps' nonsense...Nokia practically created the Smartphone..with out '3rd party apps'..
...Never the less, the word 'smartphone' has a clearly defined bracket for each company..
-LG-Optimus 2x/3d/4x
-Htc-Sensation xe/ONE S/ONE X.
-Samsung-GS2/Note/GalaxyS3.
-Huawei-Ascend D QUAD.
-Sony-Xperia S.
-Apple-iphone.
-Motorola-Razr/RazrMaxx.
-Panansonic Eluga...etc etc..

Those are 'smartphones' because they have the most up to date technology and consumers are willing to pay for the benefit....compare those to WP7 devices?? (hint..midrange/featurephones)...those that can't understand the clear difference are on the wrong tech site. ;)
 
Nonsense...a smartphone is supposed to be smart....its expensive for a reason...if you want simple games and apps,if you quite happy with a wvga screen, if your not bothered about 1080p this of 'HD' that...fine theres no problem with that, thats all catered for with a cheaper feature phone..no worries,just don't ruin it for the rest of us.

However, if your the type of person who wants the best stuff,(me) the best apps/games/cameras etc..then your unlikely to buy a wp7 device ATM...that bares out in the sales...people aren't mugs:eek:

We'll stop here.

A smartphone doesn't "have" to be expensive or powerful. Just like a computer doesn't "have" to be expensive or powerful. A smartphone runs apps. Apps that a person can buy. As opposed to feature phones which are limited to apps that are pre-installed and generally only available from the manufacturer.

Similar to computers not everyone needs or wants an enthusiast level computer with 4-8 CPU cores, dual GPUs, etc... Netbooks were quite popular despite being hugely underpowered compared to most notebooks available at the time.

The vast majority of computer users haven't got a clue how fast their processor is, how many cores it has, what GPU it has, or even how much memory they have.

Why would the vast majority of smartphone users be any different?

Just like most computer users only use the computer to browse the internet, play media, read e-mail, use productivity applications, and play casual games, so do most smartphone users.

And in both cases, if given a top of the line uber X-core machine with super dooper Y GPU, they'll likely use less than 10% (or some other low number) of its processing and rendering resources. Sure WP7 with its single core 1.4 ghz CPU might be operating closer to full useage of those resources, but if it still provides a smooth, attractive, feature rich and easy to use experience to those users, then that's all the really matters.

So. Does WP7 as a smartphone "need" that uber hardware. Obviously if it wants to run something like Infinity Blade and run the stuff a small minority of consumers want to run but won't be able to run due to processing demands, then it's certainly not the phone you are looking for.

If it wants to provide everything the vast majority of consumers will end up actually using the phone for, it's generally perfectly fine.

Obviously you're in that top whatever % of users that might need the resources for the Crysis version of a game on smartphone. And that's fine. It just means that WP7 isn't the phone for you. Doesn't make it any less capable of offering a great experience for the majority of consumers, however.

Perhaps Apollo will address the "enthusiast" phone users. Or perhaps that will have to wait until WP8. Either way, WP7 was created to be a reasonable compromise with regards to a standard BOM that wasn't too expensive for manufacturer's to make that would at the same time offer a smooth experience with the vast majority of tasks a smartphone user would put it to.

Personally I don't think including higher performing hardware is going to do anything to increase the market penetration of WP7 whether it had happened in the past or whether it happens in the future. That is all going to depend on the marketing push it gets and how receptive consumers are to that.

AT&T and Nokia have shown, at least with current pre-order sales, that with the right push and the right price you can get people to give it a chance in the face of the entrenched positions of both the iPhone and Android positions.

Whether that momentum is only a blip or whether AT&T and Nokia can sustain that momentum remains to be seen.

Regards,
SB
 
Isn't the ZTE Blade/San Francisco a couple of years old now?

Didn't they announce updated models last year? Or are they selling the same design at the same price?
 
Silent Buddha; You don't get it do you?? Im not saying wp7 is a poor Operating system, im not saying it need powerfull hardware to run smooth...it doesn't..bravo!!

Thats not the point....WP7 phones are TRYING to compete in the SMARTPHONE bracket..ie HTC ONE X territory...and are priced accordingly.....they don't compare on any level EXCEPT ''smoothness''....as a result of this gulf in features..and the lack of gulf in price to reflect that..sales have been ABYSMAL...ever heard the phrase ''the consumer is always right??''....

What WP7 devices ARE are very well designed, smooth, MIDRANGE SMARTPHONES or FEATURE PHONES...that are trying to be sold in some cases ie Nokias..upwards of £430-480...thats ridiculous!!!..

If you can't understand the fundamental difference between a top of the range smartphone and the price paid for them(value for money) and a lower end specification handset then im flogging a dead horse....
 
That's an absurd definition of 'smartphone'. The definition of a smartphone is that it supports 3rd party applications - that's always what it has meant, and it's always what it will mean.
Meet a smartphone:
imgNOKIA%203510i3.jpg

It has 3'rd party apps, games and even appstore. I've also personally written a couple of apps for it.
 
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Did iPhone 4 stopped being a smartphone after 4s came out since it's only single core? :)

edit: unlocked iPhone 4 is still selling for 519€ in the Apple store and even 3GS is 369€. Both of those are 8GB models.... Lumia 800 is 429€ over here.
 
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Did iPhone 4 stopped being a smartphone after 4s came out since it's only single core? :smile:
...It became Apples ''MIDRANGE SMARTPHONE'' ...

Iphone 4GS=SMARTPHONE
Iphone 4= Midrange smartphone = WP7
Iphone 3Gs= Featurephone...

Thats in Apples language,...all are priced accordingly...(again Apples pricing ;) )
Again..Apples inflated pricing reflects demand=they sell. enough said.
 
Meet a smartphone:
imgNOKIA%203510i3.jpg

It has 3'rd party apps, games and even appstore. I've also personally written a couple of apps for it.

Ha, good call, some Apple fan boys need to wake up, most people thought App stores were invented by Apple..:p

EDIT; by the way..in case you have noticed..it isn't 1998 anymore...all phones run '3rd party apps''..it doesn't say make Nokia asha a smartphone does it??
 
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I don't like doing this, but just as a starting point and I agree there's always lots of room for debate after this (see below...): http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/smartphone?s=t

hoho said:
It has 3'rd party apps, games and even appstore. I've also personally written a couple of apps for it.
Hah, very good point - ironically I had that exact phone with that exact colour and kept it for a few years a long long time ago. Although I never bought a single app (sorry :)) and never had any data service on it. I've also never seen a smartphone and thought my phone could already do that (despite being the case at a very basic level).

So you're perfectly right that 3rd Party Apps via Appstore isn't a sufficient criteria. A long time ago I think there was a clear defining line between the two which was RTOS vs non-RTOS. I don't think Nokia, (Sony) Ericsson, or Motorola ever marketed a phone as a smartphone if it was based on a RTOS rather than a full OS (ala Symbian). However as RTOSes evolved, processor performance improved, and virtualisation became mainstream, Samsung decided to use the Nucleus RTOS for all its shipping Bada devices which are clearly marketed as smartphones (for better or for worse... although the Wave was fairly high-end when it came out).

I think that except for Bada and probably a few obscure exceptions, every device branded as a 'smartphone' by a leading phone manufacturer has always had: 1) Full/Non-RTOS Operating System, 2) Internet Browsing of some kind, 3) 3rd Party Applications. The line will always be somewhat blurry but in 99% cases it's really pretty clear IMO.

Thats not an 'absurd' definition of a 'smartphone' at all, thats what a smartphone originally was..the best of the best...
It was the best of the best because you needed expensive high-end chips to run a full OS, internet browsing, and third party applications. The fact it was expensive was never seen as the defining feature by any of these companies - they've talked about bringing smartphones to the mainstream for a very long time.

There was an era with both high-end smartphones and high-end feature phones at comparable prices. I think the difference was pretty obvious despite the similar pricing.

its not my definition thats wrong..its the fact that like you rightly point out, lower end phones are now getting 'advanced' features..blurring the lines somewhat, i don't know where you got that '3rd party apps' nonsense...Nokia practically created the Smartphone..with out '3rd party apps'..
The term smartphone was never used before Symbian and that has supported 3rd party applications for an extremely long time (if not very effectively - and I don't know the history enough to say anything about the earliest models so I won't risk it)
...Never the less, the word 'smartphone' has a clearly defined bracket for each company..
No it doesn't. There's plenty of marketing out there referring to much lower-end products as smartphones and there always has been. You probably just haven't been paying much attention to the lower-end of the market...
 
I don't think there's any question MS hasn't delivered anywhere close to their expectations with their Windows Mobile/Phone roadmap for many years. The question is whether they're on the right track

The good thing about sitting at a 2%ish market share and being dwarfed by such vivacious platforms as Symbian and Blackberry is that the only way is up. Even the most modest of increases coming from the AT&T launch will be hailed as a huge success, and when WP7 as a whole after a year and a half of devices being available finally reaches a milestone like matching the sales that, say, a niche Android device like the 5.3 inch Samsung Galaxy Note did in just a few months, the crowing about the '3rd platform' now having reached critical mass will become as deafening as the silence so far from Nokia when it comes to actual sales numbers.

If anything is on the right track in all of this, it is the skill displayed in massaging the message that WP7 has been anything but a fiasco of historical proportions, with people somehow still having the impression that it has been 'selling ok' and that sales are 'encouraging'. With such optimism in your corner, along with a vocal army of Internet apologists who will mindlessly regurgigate truthiness like 'WP7 doesn't need the multiple CPU cores that it doesn't support' or '800x480 is just great regardless of whether a phone's screen is 3.5 or 4.7 inches", WP9 or WP10 or whatever will surely be just hunky dory. Eventually.
 
If you're going to use the word, can you at please spell it correctly: fanboi? Especially given your username?
What??
I don't like doing this, but just as a starting point and I agree there's always lots of room for debate after this (see below...): http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/smartphone?s=t
Arun this is getting silly, but your dictionary link no where mentioned that a smartphone got its name from running 3rd party apps....no it kinda runs along what i was saying...''ADVANCED FUNCTIONALITY''....smart=multicapable=advanced=high end.
The term smart phone got its name from being like handheld computer and having multiple/SMART functions..YES being able to run 3rd party apps...as in 2000 that indeed was advanced funtionality, as was email,playing snake,and a different ring tone...later on colour screens, SD cards,cameras etc where the features that the 'smartphones' got..whilst the other features trickled down to the 'mid range' handsets.

Do you not understand that simple concept?? by your 1998 definition...ALL current phones are smartphones...but they aren't are they?? all budget £10 phones are far more advanced than any 'smartphone' from 2000...thats why we have defined price brackets.....
For example..check out this ''top ten mid-range smartphones''...if you look they have a clearly defined price range..and feature set...(note the Sammy Omnia w is on that list, probably where Lumia 800 should also be)....
Definition of a 'midrange smartphone'....
http://community.giffgaff.com/t5/Blog/Top-10-mid-range-smartphones/ba-p/2794611
Dilemma - you want a new phone that’s half decent but you’re not prepared to fork out £500 odd for the privilege. You aren’t fussed about what’s currently the cutting edge. But by the same token you don’t want something awful that you’ll hate within a few months, if not immediately.

You just want a phone that a) works b) has a couple of decent features/doesn’t look terrible and c) doesn't cost the earth.

Luckily there’s a number of phones that fall into this nebulous remit that can be snapped up right now. Many high-end phones from last year have dropped in price and there are some some excellent ‘mid-range’ phone. Here’s ten of the best we’ve seen recently that will cost between £150 and £300.

Let me break it down for you a little more...
£350-500 = High end SMARTPHONE.
£150-350 = mid range smartphone.
<£150...= Feature phones, budget phone etc.. (all approx)

For the record Lumia 900 can be considered a mid/high end smartphone...because it adds FFC,RGB AMOLED,LTE....and i think it will sell because they have priced it sensibly...

EDIT; Although, it is selling PAYG in UK for about £480..that is abit too much...
 
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What??
Arun this is getting silly, but your dictionary link no where mentioned that a smartphone got its name from running 3rd party apps....
Correct, see the rest of my post. I said there was still lots of room for debate after this definition. My point was that it was never defined as price-related.

Do you not understand that simple concept?? by your 1998 definition...ALL current phones are smartphones...
I know this may be seen as nitpicking by some, but I clearly included non-RTOS in my definition, and made Bada an (unfortunate and debatable) exception. The gap between RTOS and non-RTOS is slightly smaller nowadays but back when the word smartphone gained its definition, it was a much more important technical difference IMO. This is certainly how these things have always been defined for semiconductor manufacturers where supporting a full OS required them to provide a more complex application processor.

YES being able to run 3rd party apps...as in 2000 that indeed was advanced funtionality, as was email,playing snake,and a different ring tone...later on colour screens, SD cards,cameras etc where the features that the 'smartphones' got..
??? There were plenty of phones with colour screens, able to play Snake, send/receive e-mails, etc. that were never ever called smartphones even when those features were innovative. And it wasn't just a pricing thing either. Nobody ever called the high-end Motorola RAZRs 'smartphones' in 2004-2005 and there's a huge number of other examples.

You're just making stuff up and calling things the way you want to call them because you think it's more logical; the problem is, it's not up to either of us how these words are defined. The consensus based on mainstream usage is pretty clear and it's not in your favour. I don't think any top tier manufacturer or informed consumer would call a $99 Android phone anything other than a smartphone at this point.

all budget £10 phones are far more advanced than any 'smartphone' from 2000...
I'm not aware of any £10 phone that doesn't run a RTOS, and I'm not aware of any of the very very few phones being called smartphones in 2000 running a RTOS. Although to be fair the first product being called a smartphone (the Ericsson P380) did not support 3rd Party Apps, that only came very slightly later.

thats why we have defined price brackets....
Nope, that's why you have defined price brackets.

Let me break it down for you a little more...
£350-500 = High end SMARTPHONE.
£150-350 = mid range smartphone.
<£150...= Feature phones, budget phone etc.. (all approx)
This is completely arbitrary and you're using way too specific numbers for something that's so hard to define, but even excluding that, you've clearly forgotten 'low-end smartphone' on that list simply because it would prove you wrong. And with 310,000 results on Google it's clearly mainstream at this point: https://www.google.com/#q="low-end-smartphone"

There's nothing fundamentally different between a $99 Android smartphone and a $199 Android smartphone except performance and pricing; it's clearly a gradual change, whereas a $99 feature phone with a crappy RTOS rather than Android is fundamentally different. We agree these terms are hard to define and there's always some subjective element about whether some products are in one category or the other, but that's about it. Please stop this senseless discussion already... You already tend to post too much noise (too many quick posts before thinking things through even though you're capable of it), but this is getting downright ridiculous.
 
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