Nokia's Present & Future

[french toast]

Maybe win8 supports dual cores, multiple resolutions and some what nots? http://www.engadget.com/2012/02/02/windows-phone-8-detailed/

Yea thats what i read, so they are heading in the right direction..but crikey they are taking there time about it....Nokia WP8 'holiday' releases need a powerfull duel core processor..Krait will do just fine...it also needs Adreno 320 level graphics...something that can be exploited for 12-18 months and provide ps/vita quality graphics..
-A 4.5-4.8 inch 720p Nokia clear black AMOLED with RGB layout..that will do anyone for the life of the phone...
-1gb ram...
-NFC, LTE,WIRELESS HDMI,DLNA,WIFI N, connectivity..
-Nokia pureview camera tech..
-Nokia DOLBY sound technology..but with some STEREO top quality speakers..ala n95..
-Make the front of the phone completely buttonless ala n9..maybe some swipe action as well
-Make WP8 more customisable and interesting for the consumer..without fragmentation of course...

Then they need to get there act together and release some XBOX LIVE worthy games to really set them apart....that feature was touted as the big deciding factor on wp7 release but it has turned into a damp squib compared to IOS and even Android..

The APP intergration between 'Metro w8' and phone is very savvy by microsoft..and as pointed out above something that Apple really missed the boat on..that and the half arsed Apple tv which could have finished off Google Sony nintendo and Microsoft before they even got started..

Its not the end of the road yet, the above spec phone designed well would create a storm and get Nokia back in the game..all of the above is perfectly feasable with current roadmaps this year... the only thing in not sure about is the non pentile 720p amoled screen...

 

[wco81]

Except MS doesn't make the hardware. Even Nokia is going to try to control costs, spend just enough to produce products which they think will sell.

I'm not sure that touting specs. are going to get them the kind of sales they want. By now there are few if any applications or uses of smart phones which have yet to be discovered. Nokia thinks pushing Ovi maps and better cameras will help sell their products.

Microsoft could put console-quality games on the W8 phones but is that really going to reach a broad market? Console-quality games cost a lot to develop so they will have to be priced at $40, $50 or more. 3DS and Vita have to offer promotions to move games and hardware so it's doubtful that there's a lot of people who will choose phones based on the availability of AAA games which cost $40 a pop.

There may be app. categories which haven't been developed or even conceived yet for mobile devices. And it could be that they leverage other W8 devices to develop some unique apps. But iOS and Android have too much developer support for some W8-only developer to come up with some blockbuster. And even if they do, they would need about a dozen exclusive blockbusters, not just one or two.

Instead, the more likely scenario is that W8 gets better support than WP7 is getting for the most popular apps. or app. categories from iOS and Android. MS isn't trying to crush a little upstart like Netscape here. Leveraging Windows and Office will help some but Apple and Google are getting more entrenched and they got resources that Netscape never had.

 

[dagamer]

Except MS doesn't make the hardware. Even Nokia is going to try to control costs, spend just enough to produce products which they think will sell.

I'm not sure that touting specs. are going to get them the kind of sales they want. By now there are few if any applications or uses of smart phones which have yet to be discovered. Nokia thinks pushing Ovi maps and better cameras will help sell their products.

Microsoft could put console-quality games on the W8 phones but is that really going to reach a broad market? Console-quality games cost a lot to develop so they will have to be priced at $40, $50 or more. 3DS and Vita have to offer promotions to move games and hardware so it's doubtful that there's a lot of people who will choose phones based on the availability of AAA games which cost $40 a pop.

There may be app. categories which haven't been developed or even conceived yet for mobile devices. And it could be that they leverage other W8 devices to develop some unique apps. But iOS and Android have too much developer support for some W8-only developer to come up with some blockbuster. And even if they do, they would need about a dozen exclusive blockbusters, not just one or two.

Instead, the more likely scenario is that W8 gets better support than WP7 is getting for the most popular apps. or app. categories from iOS and Android. MS isn't trying to crush a little upstart like Netscape here. Leveraging Windows and Office will help some but Apple and Google are getting more entrenched and they got resources that Netscape never had.

I don't think Android tablets are setting the world on fire, and there has already started to be a race to the bottom. And Android tablet support is almost non-existant. Major developers haven't seen the need to invest in making Android tablet apps, considering only 12 million have been sold, and I think far more Windows 8 licenses will be sold in the first month than that.

 

[wco81]

But how many of those will be for tablets? And how many for ARM tablets?

If most of those W8 licenses are for AMD and Intel laptops and desktops, or even Intel slates, it still doesn't get MS traction in mobile (or help with apps. development for W8 phones and W8 ARM tablets). And more to the point, it doesn't help Nokia, who still need their phones to sell.

 

[manux]

I don't think it even would make sense to try to combat vita heads on with graphics this year. Creating better specced hw with similar battery life selling in millions would be rather difficult. Especially if you try to make casuals notice difference in graphics and sell with 250$ price range where vita is. And that's before we consider vita will have 2nd gen games coming out for christmas + much lower level access giving better hw utilization(some say low level access is worth 1 gen leap in hw). I wouldn't be surprised to see 28nm parts on vita this christmas and 199$ price for wifi model. All that with improved battery life.

And I do think vita actually is much more than graphics. The graphics are nice and mostly not blurry flickering eyesore handheld consoles used to be. I think the bigger part is the controls and display, the hardware and it's usability is amazing.

Vita is a huge upgrade on controls over psp and that at least is what sold vita to me. After using vita for a while it feels as good as dualshock which is quite a lot said on a mobile hw. The placement of analog nubs is odd but one get's used to it.

Relying purely on touchscreen limits quite a lot what kind of games work and I doubt pushing more cpu/graphics HW would make gaming any more tempting on phones than what it already is.

 

[eastmen]

But how many of those will be for tablets? And how many for ARM tablets?

If most of those W8 licenses are for AMD and Intel laptops and desktops, or even Intel slates, it still doesn't get MS traction in mobile (or help with apps. development for W8 phones and W8 ARM tablets). And more to the point, it doesn't help Nokia, who still need their phones to sell.

It doesn't matter , MS's tools are really good for having the software run on arm and x86 with little code change. So an app for a x86 tablet can easily run on an arm tablet and a x86 desktop and an arm phone without to much of a hassle.


I'm hoping AMD has a 2ghz dual bobcat with a 65x0 class gpu fusion chip in tablets around the 1-2 watt range for the windows 8 launch. A tablet with that will be able to run all my games esp swtor pretty well and i wouldn't need to buy an arm tablet.

I don't think it even would make sense to try to combat vita heads on with graphics this year. Creating better specced hw with similar battery life selling in millions would be rather difficult. Especially if you try to make casuals notice difference in graphics and sell with 250$ price range where vita is. And that's before we consider vita will have 2nd gen games coming out for christmas + much lower level access giving better hw utilization(some say low level access is worth 1 gen leap in hw). I wouldn't be surprised to see 28nm parts on vita this christmas and 199$ price for wifi model. All that with improved battery life.

And I do think vita actually is much more than graphics. The graphics are nice and mostly not blurry flickering eyesore handheld consoles used to be. I think the bigger part is the controls and display, the hardware and it's usability is amazing.

Vita is a huge upgrade on controls over psp and that at least is what sold vita to me. After using vita for a while it feels as good as dualshock which is quite a lot said on a mobile hw. The placement of analog nubs is odd but one get's used to it.

Relying purely on touchscreen limits quite a lot what kind of games work and I doubt pushing more cpu/graphics HW would make gaming any more tempting on phones than what it already is.

IT depends on what MS wants to do. As above a 2ghz dual core bobcat would give out amazing graphics easily on par or surpasing xbox 360/ps3 graphics .

MS can get away with a slightly higher price with lower acessory costs . No $100 32 gig memory card. They can price a 32 gig memory card at $50 instead and still make a profit .

Then MS wouldn't have to worry about getting solid games out. They could just release pc verisons of current games on cart.

Battlefield 3 would be an amazing launch title and i believe with tweaking on ea's part it can easily come in at under 8 gigs . THe pc is 11.6GB so some tweaking would have to be done , but that isn't a deal breaker

 

[french toast]

I see what you are getting at..i never actually meant the full game experience of a dedicated handheld..of course i realise controls and development costs>game costs play a factor....i should have used A5X graphics as a comparison.

My point is XBOX LIVE was touted as THE standout feature of wp7 and we have not had a 'top' notch game on there..and i don't even mean proper console games..im just refering to parity to ios/Android..games like modern cambat series, GTA, infinity blade, real racing, dungeon defender, NOVA series,eternal lagacy,shadowgun, sacred odysee, hero of sparta..etc etc

The point is the whole point of spending £4-£500 on a 'smartphone' is to get the best top notch experience....that included the best cameras, the best web, the best performance, the best screens,connectivity, apps etc..if all you want is to quickly browse the web, make phone calls and play angry birds..you can get that on a midrange phone for a couple of hundred quid...Nokia and Microsoft hopefully have realised this...

 

[manux]

I'm hoping AMD has a 2ghz dual bobcat with a 65x0 class gpu fusion chip in tablets around the 1-2 watt range for the windows 8 launch. A tablet with that will be able to run all my games esp swtor pretty well and i wouldn't need to buy an arm tablet.

Battlefield 3 would be an amazing launch title and i believe with tweaking on ea's part it can easily come in at under 8 gigs . THe pc is 11.6GB so some tweaking would have to be done , but that isn't a deal breaker

Tablet's sure could have nifty hardware. I was considering more about how phone hardware this year could fare against vita.

How would you control that BF3 on tablet? If it's touch and tilt, I doubt it will be very big hit because it needs to be some silly sort of on rails or dumbed down experience(compare to any real console hw that has analog nubs and d-pads+shoulder buttons)

Sure one can sell the dumbed down stuff for 1.99$ but if one asks 40$ per game the game better be worth it.

 

[eastmen]

Tablet's sure could have nifty hardware. I was considering more about how phone hardware this year could fare against vita.

How would you control that BF3 on tablet? If it's touch and tilt, I doubt it will be very big hit because it needs to be some silly sort of on rails or dumbed down experience(compare to any real console hw that has analog nubs and d-pads+shoulder buttons)

Sure one can sell the dumbed down stuff for 1.99$ but if one asks 40$ per game the game better be worth it.

I was thinking more likely that i'd play games like BF3 when i'm at home and i could just dock it to a keyboard and mouse . Or use an xbox 360 controller.


As for phone hardware. I dunno i certianly believe we will see vita level hardware in phones later this year. I believe the ipad3 is pretty close. It really depends on how fast that dedicated graphics memory is. It might be a hard thing for phones and even tablets to compete against this year. 2013 is a diffrent story however

 

[manux]

I was thinking more likely that i'd play games like BF3 when i'm at home and i could just dock it to a keyboard and mouse . Or use an xbox 360 controller.


As for phone hardware. I dunno i certianly believe we will see vita level hardware in phones later this year. I believe the ipad3 is pretty close. It really depends on how fast that dedicated graphics memory is. It might be a hard thing for phones and even tablets to compete against this year. 2013 is a diffrent story however

The tablet as replacement PC is definitely interesting idea though extra mouse+keyboard breaks portable use cases.

As for mobile hw I don't believe it's lack of graphics or CPU that holds mobile phones gaming back. It's lack of dedicated gaming controls(touch screen takes you only so far) and lack of common market in anything outside iOS. MS ofcourse can fix a lot if not all but it remains to be seen if they are going to make a hardcore portable device like 3ds or ps vita (where 3ds graphics suck donkey balls compared to modern highend phone which leads to my deduction that it's not lack of graphics that holds games back on mobile devices).

The most serious try I see at the moment in mobile gaming is sony's PSSuite which is trying to unify sony and android platforms under same umbrella + they have the phone that is supposed to be gamer phone. PSSuite ofcourse is quite stillborn yet(in closed beta, open beta in April) and I think we won't see until 2013 if it takes off properly on anything but sony devices.

I'm not even going to try to predict what happens to vita, for me it's pretty easily gadget of the year but I can see how someone else likes the new ipad instead

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Tablet's sure could have nifty hardware. I was considering more about how phone hardware this year could fare against vita.

How would you control that BF3 on tablet? If it's touch and tilt, I doubt it will be very big hit because it needs to be some silly sort of on rails or dumbed down experience(compare to any real console hw that has analog nubs and d-pads+shoulder buttons)

Sure one can sell the dumbed down stuff for 1.99$ but if one asks 40$ per game the game better be worth it.

FPS is certainly not a good fit for any mobile device without dedicated controls, IMO. But that leaves a whole host of other game types that would be well suited to console touch controls.

Imagine Starcraft 2 on tablets for instance. They'd have to modify controls somewhat so there is less dependence on right clicks, but other than that for non-competitive play it would be idea. Lack of keyboard shortcuts would limit the competitive/professional play aspect, but then Tablets aren't exactly a core gamer experience in the first place.

Turn based strategy (X-com), turn based RPGs and pseudo real time RPGs (DAO, Baldur's Gate) would be excellant game types. Economy simulation games (Anno series for example) would also be a quite nice fit.

Even action RPGs like Diablo III would be doable. Instead of multiple buttons you have a thumb row for switching active skill, which then negates the need for multiple buttons for multiple skills.

Perhaps the typical X360/PS3 console game isn't going to be a good match for tablets but many PC centric game types could come alive on a tablet quite easily.

With X-Com getting a re-imaging and Wasteland 2 going to become a reality, those are just a couple games I can't wait to play on a Win8 x86 based tablet. I'd also be interested to see if Blizzard makes any efforts with regards to Win8 tablets as every single one of their franchises is just begging for the Tablet treatment.

The nice thing is. Any PC game that doesn't "require" the use of right clicks or hotkeys can easily be played on a tablet. I have a few PC games that I use both on my home PC and on my Win7 slate.

Regards,
SB

 

[manux]

SB I agree with your assesment.

My POV was quite a bit on the "can a mobile device(phone, tablet) replace the dedicated gaming device". Vita comes close when talking about replacement of traditional gaming console with a mobile centric device. Graphics are nearly there, controls are spot on and all the touch goodness included which doesn't work on ps3/xbox360. There are pretty neat things vita does there. I have to say even uncharted for once used the waggles, touch and camera to an extent where it felt good instead of forceful gluing on features because sony says so

 

[eastmen]

The tablet as replacement PC is definitely interesting idea though extra mouse+keyboard breaks portable use cases.

As for mobile hw I don't believe it's lack of graphics or CPU that holds mobile phones gaming back. It's lack of dedicated gaming controls(touch screen takes you only so far) and lack of common market in anything outside iOS. MS ofcourse can fix a lot if not all but it remains to be seen if they are going to make a hardcore portable device like 3ds or ps vita (where 3ds graphics suck donkey balls compared to modern highend phone which leads to my deduction that it's not lack of graphics that holds games back on mobile devices).

The most serious try I see at the moment in mobile gaming is sony's PSSuite which is trying to unify sony and android platforms under same umbrella + they have the phone that is supposed to be gamer phone. PSSuite ofcourse is quite stillborn yet(in closed beta, open beta in April) and I think we won't see until 2013 if it takes off properly on anything but sony devices.

I'm not even going to try to predict what happens to vita, for me it's pretty easily gadget of the year but I can see how someone else likes the new ipad instead

I've said before that i have a dual core amd neo 1.6ghz with a radeon hd 3200 and 4330. I'd love to replace it completely with a x86 tablet thats faster in both the gpu and cpu. I think a 2ghz bobcat would do that.

I think Silent Buddha gets to alot of the good points.

But remember this is a x86 tablet. If they have a usb port on each side of the tablet they could easily throw a thumb stick on one side and some buttons and a thumbstick on the other in a form of an attachment.

It be a bit bulky but should still be playable.

 

[eastmen]

FPS is certainly not a good fit for any mobile device without dedicated controls, IMO. But that leaves a whole host of other game types that would be well suited to console touch controls.

With X-Com getting a re-imaging and Wasteland 2 going to become a reality, those are just a couple games I can't wait to play on a Win8 x86 based tablet. I'd also be interested to see if Blizzard makes any efforts with regards to Win8 tablets as every single one of their franchises is just begging for the Tablet treatment.

The nice thing is. Any PC game that doesn't "require" the use of right clicks or hotkeys can easily be played on a tablet. I have a few PC games that I use both on my home PC and on my Win7 slate.

Regards,
SB

Civ 5 , The new sim city would be awsome. Also I could play SWTOR republic on it or any mmorpg really. I don't think PVP would be great but the PVE content should work

 

[hoho]

But remember this is a x86 tablet. If they have a usb port on each side of the tablet they could easily throw a thumb stick on one side and some buttons and a thumbstick on the other in a form of an attachment.

It be a bit bulky but should still be playable.

It will also be incredibly fragile.

Though still, I'd love to have something like it

 

[wco81]

That doesn't sound too different from the Windows tablets they've been selling.

They're going to have to undercut iPad's price and a lot of Android tablets came out with ports and then over time undercut iPad in price but still haven't sold, like the Toshiba products.

Some manufacturer is going to have to go crazy on the supply-chain to be able to compete. It'll be interesting to see if any other manufacturer is able to secure large volumes of retina-class displays, for example, not to mention all the NAND.

 

[eastmen]

It will also be incredibly fragile.

Though still, I'd love to have something like it

I was thinking there be a bar or something that connects the two together and runs the length of the tablet. Kinda like cradling the tablet so the controllers are firmer. Or perhaps the controllers are built into a case thats a little bigger than the tablet

That doesn't sound too different from the Windows tablets they've been selling.

They're going to have to undercut iPad's price and a lot of Android tablets came out with ports and then over time undercut iPad in price but still haven't sold, like the Toshiba products.

Some manufacturer is going to have to go crazy on the supply-chain to be able to compete. It'll be interesting to see if any other manufacturer is able to secure large volumes of retina-class displays, for example, not to mention all the NAND.

I'd pay $800 for the tablet I'd describe and it will be more of a professional tablet / x86 power user tablet. MS would still be able to sell kids toys like the Ipad and andriod tablets using arm cpus .

I've seen the new ipad with its new retina class display and it really doesn't do much to the tablet. I'd like higher res than we have now , i dunno if i quite need retina class. Mabye it would look better on a bigger screen but the 9 inches of the ipad just isn't big enough.

Anyway , MS should go into a deal with Micron and open its own Flash plant and use the Flash for the xbox carts and tablets.

 

[wco81]

$800 tablets not named iPad won't sell. Hell they have hard enough time selling $800 laptops.

As far as MS investing capital to secure the supply-chain, that's what they may have to do. But they didn't do it for Zune and they didn't want to make their own phone, rather paid Nokia to take WP7.

So far, that strategy hasn't worked for them in mobile (obviously it worked well in desktop OS). It's going to come down to whether the PC OEMs can make more money or sell more of a $500 laptop or an $800 W8 x86 tablet.

Most PC laptops these days have 1366x768 screens, even some which cost over $1000. So if the higher-resolution screens take off, it's going to pressure margins even more. In that context, it's hard to see one of these manufacturers invest billions to crank out a lot of tablets, which may carry higher costs than traditional laptops.

Certainly, Nokia's first priority has to be building back up their phone business, not investing too much in tablets, which is not their core business. So we come back to the argument on why W8 phones would be different than WP7 phones in sales. What was posited was an improved app. situation, because W8 development will support deployment to multiple device targets.

However, it's not clear that W8 desktop apps. would have much value on mobile devices, especially apps. developed for x86 devices (mainly laptops and desktops) which assume certain hardware features and power profiles which may not apply to mobile devices.

 

[Exophase]

I'm hoping AMD has a 2ghz dual bobcat with a 65x0 class gpu fusion chip in tablets around the 1-2 watt range for the windows 8 launch.

Right now that configuration, only at 1.6GHz, will run you 18W. Windows 8 is expected to be released before 2013. AMD has no plans for a 28nm Brazos successor before then. Expecting something at 10-20x better perf/W is absurd.

 

[eastmen]

Right now that configuration, only at 1.6GHz, will run you 18W. Windows 8 is expected to be released before 2013. AMD has no plans for a 28nm Brazos successor before then. Expecting something at 10-20x better perf/W is absurd.

I'm hoping on a 32/28nm brazos before 2013. New Managment and all. Plus I really can't see how amd wouldn't have something ready to go for windows 8 launch , seems insane to me. Also wasn't it simply Wichita that was canceled and not a die shrink to bravos .

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/mobile...razos_2_0_as_Krishna_Wichita_Get_Delayed.html

Also to be fair alot of people have been able to undervolt brazos


http://semiaccurate.com/2012/01/09/spotlight-brazostweaker/


and we have chips like the c-50 which is a dual core 1ghz

http://www.netbooknews.com/19203/amd-ontario-c-50-vs-intel-atom-n550-power-consumption-testing/


Seems for web browsing 6w and gaming 10w


and then AMD has the Z-01 chip 1ghz 2 cores 5.9 TDP the gpu runs at 276mhz with 80 radeon cores. It uses DDr 3 1066.

So even on 40nm amd was able to drop 3 watts from the c-50 while keeping performance the same .


I think dual core 2 ghz at 1-2 watts is possible with a micron drop. I don't expect blistering performance , but it seems to play alot of games well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhYZF9A2SwA

My neo 1.6ghz with 4330 + hd 3200 (its a dx 9 game so it can use both) is a slide show and I know from experiance that the cpu in this game is the most important part