Next Generation Hardware Speculation with a Technical Spin [post GDC 2020] [XBSX, PS5]

Discussion in 'Console Technology' started by Proelite, Mar 16, 2020.

  1. mrcorbo

    mrcorbo Foo Fighter
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2004
    Messages:
    3,947
    Likes Received:
    2,690
    PS3 developers making exclusive games didn't do things in their games that the PS3 wasn't good at.
     
    egoless and BRiT like this.
  2. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    43,577
    Likes Received:
    16,028
    Location:
    Under my bridge
    Biggest disappointment of PS3 was the drop in particle quality from PS2. The special effects of the PS2 games I enjoyed really made them zing. Shadow quality took a nose-dive too with shadow volumes replaced with shadow mapping.
     
    PSman1700, TheAlSpark and eloyc like this.
  3. DSoup

    DSoup meh
    Legend Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2007
    Messages:
    12,735
    Likes Received:
    8,122
    Location:
    London, UK
    Yup, like Cell's read speed from local memory was 16MB/s - leading Sony to have to write "(no, this is not a typo)" on dev documentation. :runaway:
     
    turkey and BRiT like this.
  4. Arwin

    Arwin Now Officially a Top 10 Poster
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    May 17, 2006
    Messages:
    18,063
    Likes Received:
    1,660
    Location:
    Maastricht, The Netherlands
    That is a completely irrelevant remark though as you would DMA data in there and then use the blazing fast local storage RAM.
     
    Lucid_Dreamer and DSoup like this.
  5. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    43,577
    Likes Received:
    16,028
    Location:
    Under my bridge
    Yes. You'd work with the HW's strengths, not its weaknesses, which is the point being made. ;)
     
    Lucid_Dreamer likes this.
  6. Arwin

    Arwin Now Officially a Top 10 Poster
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    May 17, 2006
    Messages:
    18,063
    Likes Received:
    1,660
    Location:
    Maastricht, The Netherlands
    Yeah no, that wasn’t really the reason why framebuffer effects sometimes ran at quarter-res though, that wouldn’t have allowed for even a fraction of that
     
  7. PSman1700

    Veteran Newcomer

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2019
    Messages:
    2,684
    Likes Received:
    895

    ZoE2 :)
     
  8. Lucid_Dreamer

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2008
    Messages:
    1,210
    Likes Received:
    3
    True. Alpha effects were not generally stressed as much with 1st party PS3 titles, IIRC. 3rd party and 1st party X360 titles cut alpha effects down to the size of the X360's eDRAM.

    Besides alpha effects, what else can you think of that was greatly limited GPU bandwidth. Also, what effects do you think would/could cause the next-gen consoles "bandwidth fever"?
     
    #2788 Lucid_Dreamer, Jun 3, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2020
  9. Inuhanyou

    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2012
    Messages:
    1,114
    Likes Received:
    286
    Location:
    New Jersey, USA
    360s edram was great. Cerny once talked about 1tb/s edram on ps4...in wonder if those kind of solutions will be something to look at in future. 256mb of 5tb/s anyone?
     
  10. DSoup

    DSoup meh
    Legend Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2007
    Messages:
    12,735
    Likes Received:
    8,122
    Location:
    London, UK
    This was covered in Mark Cerny's 2013 GameLabs talk 'The road to PS4', he said:

    Since Cerny began leading PlayStation hardware direction (Vita, PS4, PS4 Pro, PS5), he has delivered hardware based on feedback from devs on what they need to solve problems. So I'd say, as long as Mark Cerny continues to lead PlayStation hardware, and devs continue to shun esoteric solutions, you'll never seen something like EDRAM in a PlayStation.
     
    Lucid_Dreamer and London-boy like this.
  11. Tkumpathenurpahl

    Tkumpathenurpahl Oil my grapes.
    Veteran Newcomer

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2016
    Messages:
    1,558
    Likes Received:
    1,399
    I wonder what, if anything, might make them reconsider that to any extent? The example that faced Cerny was quite a dramatic example; the positive developer feedback and swift utilisation of its resources indicates that they made the right choice.

    If the on-chip memory could be larger, or the sacrifice to the main memory's bandwidth lesser, I wonder if they would necessarily make the same decision?

    If, for example, HBM3 is released (~512GB/s per stack) and becomes relatively affordable by the time of an equally hypothetical PS5Pro. Relatively affordable in the sense that it will be cheap enough to supplement the main memory, but not replace it.

    Hypothetical PS5Pro memory configurations:
    1. 20GB's 16Gbps GDDR6 = 640GB/s
    2. 20GB's 18Gbps GDDR6 = 720GB/s
    3. 16GB's 16Gbps GDDR6 + 1 stack 4GB's HBM3 = 1024GB/s
    The first two options are the most straightforward, but the last one has relatively high bandwidth for the memory pool with the largest capacity, and relatively high capacity for the memory pool with the largest bandwidth.

    Perhaps ray tracing might warrant this shift? Don't BVH's benefit from very high bandwidth?
     
    Jay and DSoup like this.
  12. Inuhanyou

    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2012
    Messages:
    1,114
    Likes Received:
    286
    Location:
    New Jersey, USA
    Iirc the main issue of 360s edram was that they didnt put in enough, so devs had to sacrifice and scrape by to get everything into that 10mb framebuffer. But even then the main bw of 360 was around the ps3s even without usage of the edram...correct me of im.wrong.

    So like the post above me says...if they could increase the amount of edram and minimize the bw penalty to main ram it would be pretty interesting
     
  13. Dictator

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2011
    Messages:
    245
    Likes Received:
    926
    In my talks with devs, yeah memory bandwidth is very important. According to one: "RT is bw hungry as hell".
     
    HBRU, DSoup, Jay and 3 others like this.
  14. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    43,577
    Likes Received:
    16,028
    Location:
    Under my bridge
    In a pro, no way. It'll require specific, considerable efforts to use the machine. A pro should just run the base game with more room for improvements without needing an engine reworking to manage a small memory pool.

    Given faster SSDs, I could definitely see something like [fast SSD > relatively small fastish DDR > very fast HBM] in future hardware. The DDR would sit more as a cache between storage and working RAM. Everything will be streamed and tiled and virtualised!
     
    Tkumpathenurpahl and BRiT like this.
  15. DSoup

    DSoup meh
    Legend Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2007
    Messages:
    12,735
    Likes Received:
    8,122
    Location:
    London, UK
    Things change, but as long as devs are not embracing weird tech I don't see Cerny-led Sony hardware returning to the mad hardware of PS2 and PS3. Cerny's time-to-triangle metric is vague and a bit trite, but in terms of expressing the ease/effort with which you can start putting something onscreen, it does it's job and doing things easily and quickly will tend to find favour with most people - particularly those paying the bills. :wink4:
     
    #2795 DSoup, Jun 3, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2020
  16. fehu

    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2006
    Messages:
    1,754
    Likes Received:
    746
    Location:
    Somewhere over the ocean
    coff coff one x coff transparent coff
     
  17. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    43,577
    Likes Received:
    16,028
    Location:
    Under my bridge
    It's very easy to fit data designed for small pools into a larger pool, but not so easy the other way around. ;)
     
    milk, HBRU, Lucid_Dreamer and 3 others like this.
  18. BRiT

    BRiT Verified (╯°□°)╯
    Moderator Legend Alpha

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    15,897
    Likes Received:
    14,809
    Location:
    Cleveland
    Xbox One games can run unpatched on OneX perfectly fine.

    So what was the intended point, besides spreading virus through coughing?
     
  19. Kaotik

    Kaotik Drunk Member
    Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2003
    Messages:
    9,125
    Likes Received:
    3,014
    Location:
    Finland
    I was wondering why Windows Defender started screaming every time I visit this thread, now I know why!
     
    HBRU and DSoup like this.
  20. Jay

    Jay
    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2013
    Messages:
    2,705
    Likes Received:
    1,809
    I wouldn't have gone with the PS5 Pro as an example, I'd have gone with PS6.
    But his example would still mean it runs the base game better with no code changes.

    But to make full use of pro features would need code changes, just like current mid gen with id buffer, or single pool on 1X.

    Unless you think it will just be faster with no IP changes at all so different than the way current mid gen was approached? I think that would be very limiting.
     
    Inuhanyou likes this.
Loading...

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Beyond3D has been around for over a decade and prides itself on being the best place on the web for in-depth, technically-driven discussion and analysis of 3D graphics hardware. If you love pixels and transistors, you've come to the right place!

    Beyond3D is proudly published by GPU Tools Ltd.
Loading...