Neverending Upscaling/Resolutions/AA etc Thread #3 (Rules Post #1!)

Discussion in 'Consoles' started by Shifty Geezer, May 27, 2008.

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  1. novcze

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    But is always better make upscaling in only one step. Worst case scenario for everyone is rendering in sub 1280x720 resolution, then upscale in console to 720p, then upscale to 1920x1080 or 1366x768 in TV.
     
  2. user542745831

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    Yes, that has already been mentioned:

    960 x 1080 (or one of the other sub 1080p resolutions) on a 1080p tv/display (native 1920 x 1080) would mean, that only the stretch/horizontal scale from 960 to 1920 and no other scaling would be needed. Or 1280 to 1920 in the case of gran turismo 5 prologue for example. Furthermore, most displays with lower native resolution than 1080p (1024 x 768 or 1360 x 768 for example) are better at scaling down 1080i/p than scaling a resolution which is even lower than their native display resolution, like 720p, up.

    Given this, plus the fact, that you can scale in hardware with 960 x 1080 (or one of the other sub 1080p resolutions), and the possibility to not only scale to 1080p, but to 1080i, too, then (which is of some use for some users), sounds, as if 960 x 1080 would indeed be a better choice than 720p. Especially when there is no or not much performance loss. Don't you think?

    Some users on this thread, said, that uncharted: drake's fortune does have a 960 x 1080 mode in addition to a 720p mode but only in some regions. Do some of you know, why it doesn't have that additional mode in some regions like europe as it has been mentioned here?
     
    #822 user542745831, Aug 10, 2008
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  3. grandmaster

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    There was a big thread on Eurogamer about this, which prompted this response:

    http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=90995

    The explanation from Sony suggests that development on the US and European versions split apart at the end of the process, and 1080i support only went into the US version.

    I can't say it's a particularly convincing argument.
     
  4. user542745831

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    Okay, thank you. They are only talking about 1080i there, they didn't mention 1080p. But 1080i and 1080p is possible through hardware scaling in the 960 x 1080 us version, isn't it?

    Why not adding it by patching it after the release then? If it runs well in the us version, why shouldn't it run well in the europe version, too?

    Anyway, are there any good comparison 1080p/720p screenshots from games (not only uncharted: drakes's fortune) which have 960 x 1080 rendering mode (or the other sub 1080p resolutions) in addition to 720p?
     
    #824 user542745831, Aug 10, 2008
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  5. -tkf-

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    I can see the reasoning since there are very few TV´s in europe that has the 720p issue, unlike the USA where low quality 1080i tv´s have been sold for a long time. Did anyone compare the internal resolution on the US 1080i version to the 720p
     
  6. user542745831

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    That has already been asked:

    But, it's not, that the game is rendered at 1080i, but at 960 x 1080p, isn't it? There is no particular 1080i version like what -tkf- said, isn't it? It's just, that it becomes possible at all, to scale/stretch/display to/at 1920 x 1080i and/or 1920 x 1080p by hardware when using anamorphic resolution like 960 x 1080 (or 1280 x 1080 or 1440 x 1080 or 1600 x 1080) for rendering, isn't it?
     
  7. jandlecack

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    @tkf: Exactly. 960x1080 rendering was solely added to Uncharted to provide an HD solution for people whose displays can only do 1080i. Which isn't uncommon in the US, while it's nonexistent in Europe.

    @user: You don't understand. What he wanted to know is whether the internal rendering resolution in 1080i mode @ Uncharted was different from the 1080p one. It's not. They simply thought that when adding an anamorphic resolution as such, they might as well enable it for 1080p displays.

    You still don't grasp the point of Ax1080. Yes it is implemented sometimes so that the game *could* scale to 1080p. But it's more likely to be there for 1080i support. The incentive Sony is giving here is that you shouldn't need 1080p support on a game that renders in 720p or anything around that.

    Also I agree that single step upscaling is better, so long as you can tell a quality difference in the picture reference Soul Calibur.

    And if you ask me why Kojima decided to have MGS4 scale to 1080p...it's to deliver on Sony's marketing promise and nothing but. Also this just in case http://i32.tinypic.com/jqm3ir.jpg :p
     
  8. el_rika

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    well, not necesarily.

    On my setup for example, MGS4 looks much better in 1080p than it does in 720p. And this is because my LG HDTV handles 1080p resolution differently than it handles 720p and by different i mean better especially in color dynamic range and contrast. If i put MGS4 in 720p, i get all sorts of block artefacts all over the place (in cutscenes mostly), while in 1080p they are extremely hard to detect, the image beeing twice as smooth with the transition from white to black much smoother as well.

    I don't know how 1080p works for other games, but MGS4 looks better in 1080p. It is probably a TV thing, but it most definitelly looks better and in the end that's all that matters.
     
  9. user542745831

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    That already was said here, too:

    That really is the fact on almost every display. Even true 1280 x 720 native displays often are looking better, when feeding them with 1080i or 1080p instead of 720p. 720p is of course the best on such displays when a game renders in real 1280 x 720 and not something below, because then you get pixelperfect display. But, as already stated, there are very few displays that actually have 1280 x 720 native display resolution. Most do have 1024 x 768, 1360 x 768 or something like that, including 1920 x 1080. And really often overscan is applied anyway.

    Why shouldn't it be good for 1080p scaling, too? In fact this is what is done with gran turismo 5 prologue (except, that they are using 1280 x 1080p instead of 960 x 1080p for it). And why shouldn't 960 x 1080 scaled to 1080i or 1080p look better than 720p? You won't get 720p natively displayed on almost every tv/display anyway. Plus those anamorphic sub 1080p resolutions have the advantage to use the ps3 hardware scaler.

    As kindly requested before: Could someone who is capable please make some comparison screenshots of games which are able to be rendered in 1280 x 720 or 960 x 1080? So that we could look at some pictures from such games (uncharted: drake's fortune for example) with output set to 720p on xmb and a picture with output set, upscaled and eventually forced to 1080p in xmb? Gran turismo 5 prologue screenshots in 1280 x 720 4 x aa compared to 1280 x 1080 2 x aa would be interesting, too. Each captured from the hdmi output with 720p output for 720p rendering and 1080p output for anamorphic sub 1080p rendering. Or could someone atleast post a link where you already can see such comarisons, please? It would be interesting and easier to imagine if 960 x 1080 or 1280 x 720 looks better if there were such pictures.
     
  10. jandlecack

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    It's like arguing with a brick wall. If you simply reject and insist on your opinion then don't come here and ask stuff. Go find comparison shots yourself or better yet, cap them yourself. Since you have, I'm assuming, the option to view both versions, please, do it, decide for yourself and keep it to yourself.

    I said precisely that 960x1080 is done so that games don't run in SD on TVs that only do 1080i. In the same interest, they add 1080p support because it makes virtually no difference to render. It's a BONUS and not something that will make your games look better. Live with it.

    GT5:prologue renders in 1280x1080 and upscales to 1080p - what's the big deal? It looks exactly the same on my 1080p panel whether it's 720p or 1080p.

    Also, cut the bull on 720p not being displayed natively. Yes panels are 1366x768 but that difference to 720p is so insignificant that nobody in their right mind would mention it.

    You are stats padding to be honest. "Oh look my game is 1080p although it really isn't anywhere close to 1920x1080". It's making me sick. You are the reason Sony decided to force feed this 1080p crap to people. It's marketing and nothing else. Games this generation cannot do 1920x1080 natively with that amount of polygons and post processing/AA, so no game even if it has 1080 horizontal rendering lines is really 1080p. That's why people like you have to fake the effect and are so desperate for pointless scaling from 720p games to 1080p. Drop it already. Play games the way developers meant you to play them, or don't at all and go with the PC.
     
  11. user542745831

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    Calm down man :eek::grin:. Nobody rejects anything, except you. As it already has been said: it was just asked what is better or worse. Maybe 1280 x 720 is just better than 960 x 1080. Maybe 960 x 1080 is just better. It was only questioned. The only one who means that he must be right without proving it or something like that is you. Anyway, the best thing would likely be to be able to use the ps3 hardware scaler for horizontal and vertical scaling. Then you could scale 720p to 1080p output anyway without the need to use anamorphic sub 1080p resolutions for rendering.

    If nobody will provide those pictures it is a pity, but it is okay.

    And again: nobody especially wants faked things, but the best looking picture. Sounds as if you didn't get that. And yes, most of the time, real 1920 x 1080p rendering isn't that simple on those consoles. We already knew that.

    Well, never mind.
     
    #831 user542745831, Aug 10, 2008
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  12. grandmaster

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    1080i is 1080p to all intents and purposes. Both modes require the developer to use framebuffer with 1080 lines (horizontal resolution is at the discretion of the developer). The interlacing is done by hardware. So every game with 1080i support automatically comes with 1080p support too.

    As has been mentioned many times in the past, PS3's hardware scaler is horizontal in nature and use bilinear scaling.
     
  13. user542745831

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    Thank you for your answer.

    Yes, that's exactly what was questioned and meant at the same time.

    Unfortunately restricted to horizontal scaling so far, yes. Who knows why, but still a pity.
     
  14. jandlecack

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    But I told you what is better as long as you don't have a cheap generic TV set. And Quaz said it too. Most of the time, it's better to have the TV upscale from 720p natively to its 1080p panel.

    Sure in some cases that might not be the best choice but that doesn't mean it will look better from 960x1080 up to 1080p. Know what I'm trying to say? Neither is really optimal.

    I have to say that back when I only had a 720p set I was more comfortably playing games in their native resolution than now in 720p on a 1080p set. But that's an entirely different story.

    That's also why I will recommend a good 720p set to anybody who wants to play PS3, 360 or even Wii on it.

    1080p is great if it really is a 1920x1080 game, other than that it's more of an issue, hence why you want the upscaling so badly. No upscaling needed = best possible way to play.
     
  15. DaJuice

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    :shock:
    You can't be serious. I've run the game at 1080 and 720, and as you would expect it looks noticably sharper in its 1080 mode.

    Also I seriously question that software upscaling produces worse results than the scalers in *most* TVs. I think it's more likely the other way around.
     
  16. novcze

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    Not issue, "fake" 1080p games like GT5P, Super Stardust HD, looks better than 720p and note that I can run 720p without overscan on my full hd set.
     
  17. grandmaster

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    Well it's a choice between 30% more resolution and 2x AA in the 1080p mode, vs 720p native and 4xAA in this scenario. Those are pretty big differences so I'm surprised they look the same to you. Perhaps your display needs calibration.
     
  18. Arwin

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    Not to mention that in the car selection screens and such the game renders at full 1920x1080 I think ...
     
  19. grandmaster

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    Yes, the entire front end is 1920x1080 with no AA, locked at 30fps.
     
  20. Bohdy

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    Wow, sorry to interrupt this somewhat heated exchange :)smile:), but putting aside '1080p' for the moment, does anyone know what RE4 Wii version renders at?

    I've tried to do some pixel counting, but its really hard to find a good enough screenshot for it. As far as I've been able to tell, it looks like its 360px on the vertical, and something under 640 on the horizontal.. maybe 604 or even 512?

    Also, does anyone know if the resolution changes in 16:9 mode? As far as I can tell it may just scale the vertical out to 480.
     
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