Neverending Upscaling/Resolutions/AA etc Thread #2 *Rules: post: #616 *

Discussion in 'Consoles' started by TheAlSpark, Jan 6, 2008.

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  1. Nesh

    Nesh Double Agent
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    I d disagree with with that considering all their efforts to provide a full gaming experience (excluding the scaling). Their efforts in that area are just as much if not more as their competitors.
     
  2. Rockster

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    Or perhaps credence to the notion that the GPU was a later/changed consideration, resulting in a PC derived part which don't typically need or incorporate such scalers. No different than the solution NVidia delivered for the original XBox. From which Microsoft no doubt learned the importance of incorporating scaling functionality in future console products.
     
  3. one

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    It's obvious that cost reduction is more important than supporting non-720p TVs and analog VGA monitors which are rarities in storefronts even today. If you allow developers to make games with the scaler in mind, you can't remove it later.
     
  4. MonkeyLicker

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    With sub-HD PS3 games becoming more the norm, it seems like an odd omission. They allow developers to scale but force them to use valuable resources to do it with. It also affects those with 1080p tvs as well. It seems like a bad idea to rely on external hardware of variable quality to deliver your content.
     
  5. one

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    "Force" is an odd word when a developer is given a choice between using the given resources for graphics effects or software scaling. It's also important for backward compatibility.
     
  6. Shifty Geezer

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    This is going way off topic! The choices the manufacturers made isn't the debate here! Please refrain from those discussions here, and leave this thread for discussing the software choices developers are making regards upscaling and effects.
     
  7. -tkf-

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    The question is, how many cycles does a upscale require in reality. Is it 2% of the render time or is it more.

    Still, there is only one to blame for "sub" 720p games, the developer. If he ends up with a game that cant sustain 720p he either chose poorly or he calculated from the start that the 2% hit from scaling was worth it.

    Imho, the best looking games this generation (so far) was all 720p or 1080p and on the PS3.

    A motion controlled Blu-Ray player with a default Harddrive for all those funny Java movies. That comment is so unlike you.
     
  8. catisfit

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  9. function

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    What kind of software upscaling do PS3 games (that upscale) use?

    I'm eager to know because the bilinear scaling on my GeForce 7 card (hardware, built into the chip iirc) looks very soft and not at all nice. The Xbox 360 at least uses a reasonable scaling algorithm, if the PS3 were to simply use bilinear it would be pretty horrible.

    [Edit:] It's not whether the PS3 has to software upscale or not that should be the big issue for consumers (especially "videophiles"), IMO, it's whether the upscaling that gets done is good or poor). [/Edit]

    What would the cost of decent upscaling be compared to bilinear if done on a fast unit like a SPU?
     
  10. rapso

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    AFAIK it's a very good quality upscaling for movies, a lot of videophiles" say that it's the best upscaler for DVD movies on the market. but i wouldn't expect that high quality scaling for games.
     
  11. sir doris

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    The reason for that is that DVD's and blurays are upscalled by the Cell (3SPU's?) not RSX, obviously when playing games Cell is busy running the game so can't really be used in the same time.
     
  12. rapso

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    that's what i would also say.
    but there are also a lot of developers who claim they're using less than 30% of the available Cell/SPU performance, wouldn't be that painful for them to add high quality scaling I guess.
     
  13. DJ12

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    I'm sure they are using close to 100% of CELL, with 30% efficiency
     
  14. deepbrown

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    Bravo
     
  15. obonicus

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  16. joker454

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    There are fast ways to software upscale, faster than it would normally take to run the pixel shaders in the 'skipped' area. Then again it's not always about speed, sometimes you need a bit more memory. Or, you decide you can get a better look at 640p with improved shaders. There's nothing wrong with using variable resolutions. I mean seriously, why should everything be 720p? We should be free to use any resolution we want for whatever our needs may be. Not having a hardware scaler makes that harder. Given that this generation of consoles is a 'transitionary' generation from SD to HD, the manufacturers should have expected to be dealing with a variety of display types with different abilities, as well as the possibility that there wouldn't be enough machine grunt to always overcome the resolution bump from last generation.


    I'll do the mods a favor and not reply to this one :)


    You're actually helping to make my point! The harddrive is required for it to be a blu-ray 2.0 compatible player. So to the movie suits that's a must have. To the gamer suits, it may have been a possible cost cut as you can still make games without it. The controller has no vibration feature. To the movie suits vibration is irrelevant, an easy skip. The gamer suits would have paid the lawsuit and shipped standard with one. Likewise with a hardware scaler. Movie suits don't care, all the HD content is at 1080p, and for regular dvd's they can devote the entire grunt of the machine to upscaling it. To the gamer suits, can you really see a bunch of graphics gurus sitting around a table and crossing "hardware scaling" off the must have list, for this generation?


    It's an exceptionally good dvd upscaler, some claim as good as the Oppo players. But then again they can devote the resources of the entire machine to just upscaling, which apparently they do because the fan sometimes kicks up a bit when playing a dvd movie.
     
  17. _phil_

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    hey , probably it's NVIdia that screwed up....
     
  18. -tkf-

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    Not sure what you are trying to accomplish here..?

    The lack of hardware scaler was a giant minus for the PS3. I doubt the movie suits loved all the bad press from owners of shitty HDTV´s that couldnt accept the 1080p and since the PS3 didnt have a scaler it couldnt´help them. And it was a piss poor DVD player as well. I dont see how that helped the PS3 as a movie player at all.

    It was software and Cell that made a difference in both cases.

    1GB memory is the requirement for a 2.0 player not 40GB.

    EDIT: I would still like an estimate on the price for a software upscale, and is it completely free on the 360, you should know :)
     
  19. novcze

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    Why is hardware scaling so important? Every TV can upscale from 720p or 576p to whatever native panel resolution is.

    Consoles are not PCs so developers must know this, so natural choice of resolution is 576p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p.

    I like attitude of Sony internal/exclusive developers, no sub 720p games, I really appreciate that.
     
  20. joker454

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    Yes, exactly! For a console movie player, you don't need scaling in hardware since you have the entire might of the PS3 to do it for you in software. In fact, one could argue that as a movie device a software scaling solution is preferred to a hardware one on PS3 since the mass cpu power available lets them tweak a software scaling/filtering solution over the life of the machine. Which leads me back to my original point...as a movie device, no hardware scaling is no big deal since it can all be solved and/or improved over time in software. Not so as a gaming device since you obviously have way less resources to dedicate to scaling/processing.

    Bare minimum doesn't help it to be the ultimate movie device, meaning 2.0 playback, saving book marks, downloading trailers, renting downloable movies online, etc... Right now, it's current design screams movie/media friendly in every way, one reason of which is that standard and easily upgradable 40gb hdd.

    Maybe, but I'd have figured that Sony would have had a countermeasure for that kinda thing, legal or otherwise. I can't imagine it went down like:

    NVidia: Oops, scaling doesn't work.
    Sony: That's ok, here's your check.

    ...seems unlikely to me :)
     
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