Neverending Upscaling/Resolutions/AA etc Thread #2 *Rules: post: #616 *

Discussion in 'Consoles' started by AlBran, Jan 6, 2008.

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  1. Quaz51

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    <<message for some visitors from others forums>>
    it was a joke of course, Haze demo is 576p... sorry :oops:
     
    #881 Quaz51, May 7, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: May 8, 2008
  2. mech

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    Also let's not forget that 576i on PS2 was 720x576, not 1024x576, 40% fewer pixels.

    And as Quaz said, most games ran internally at sub 640x480 and were scaled.
     
  3. Mintmaster

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    You know what's hilarious? Every one of the quincunx screenshots that you're praising is just plain 2xAA! :lol: There goes your credibility out the window...

    Quincunx isn't captured in screenshots, because NVidia hardware usually (always?) applies the filter when outputting to the display.

    That KZ2 screenshot is not Quincunx either. There are too many edges where the intensity goes bright,bright,dim,dim as you look at the pixels crossing it. That's impossible with Quincunx. You will aways have a medium tone due to the blur of half the samples.

    There reasons aliasing isn't easy to see in that screenshot are:
    -The view is tilted, so you don't have many near-horizontal and near-vertical edges
    -The colour palette is very muted with few high contrast edges
    -Post processing is eliminating a lot of bad edges. The normals from deferred rendering might be helping here.

    Uhh, why? It has more pixels than 720p yet shows more obvious aliasing due to a more extreme worst case scenario.
     
  4. grandmaster

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    Quincunx always looks way too blurry to me, especially when the game is in motion. Combined with the lower frame rate, it help to kill the detail levels in PS3 Assassin's Creed, to name just one game.
     
    #884 grandmaster, May 8, 2008
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  5. Nick Laslett

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    It was a bit of a shock to hear that Haze resolution is only 1024x576.

    (N.B. I have not had a chance to download the demo yet.)

    But on reflection it will be a useful comparison to HD games to see how they use the available bandwidth and memory that using a lower resolution affords them.

    As an interested observer of many B3D debates, I get the impression that they have a lot of headroom to play with.

    I hope they put it to good use, otherwise it will be hard to understand the resolution choice.

    I bet when this decision was made, they never thought it would be made public.

    It is not difficult to imagine that the work in this thread has actually had an impact on game developers.
     
  6. Statix

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    Are you just making stuff up now? I've seen TONS of screenshots taken comparing the image quality of Quincunx to 2xAA, and there's a major difference.

    Killzone 2 is confirmed to use Quincunx, and Quaz51 says the screenshot looks like Quincunx to him. You put it together.

    On a technical basis.
     
  7. Pete

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    I'm wracking my brain and a quick search turned up nothing, but didn't NV either offer a program to emulate QC or detect a sshot was being taken and automatically emulate it?
     
  8. bagofsuck

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    Is it true that rockstar confirmed that the ps3 version is running at 720p?
     
  9. Pugger

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    No becasue it isn't running in 720p. As for quincunx, if it this thats causing the blurry image quality on GTA4 and Haze, well they can stick it, because it makes the games impossible to play for me. Give a clean image with a few jaggies any day compared to a blurred image which still has jaggies anyway.
     
    #889 Pugger, May 8, 2008
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  10. betan

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    How do you know that?
    Just asking, because the following comment makes it seem like you missed Quaz's reports on those two games.
     
  11. deepbrown

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    Huh? Quaz said it's 640p
     
  12. betan

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    He also said 1xAA (!= QAA), which is why I was asking. ;)
     
  13. HDMI_1.3a

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    Hi,
    What are the resolution for these PS3 games please:

    *Mainichi Issho
    *Railfan
    *Railfan THSR
    *Valkyria Chronicles
    *Wangan Midnight

    Thanks :)
     
  14. Quaz51

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    576i on PS2 is 640x512 max
     
  15. Quaz51

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    i never say Quincunx in GTA, just no AA
     
  16. Quaz51

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  17. JaylumX

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    Quazi51, the GRID Demo is out on Marketplace. Any chance of doing your magic and finding out its native resolution please [hides behind a sofa]

    Cheers
     
  18. upnorthsox

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    And to be more accurate still, that should be Haze EU demo is 576p.

    There's little reason (other than not wanting to create a second rendering) for FRD to put out a 576p resolution demo to the NA market when there are much more upscaling friendly resolutions in the same pixel cost range.

    I'd hope you will also be looking at the NA demo as well that'll be released today.
     
  19. Mintmaster

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    Maybe you're talking about comparisons from NVidia PR or that tool Pete is talking about, but NONE of the images you posted are Quincunx. Go ask Quaz.

    Like I said, Quincunz is applied to display output, not the framebuffer in memory. Quaz never confirmed that image, and if he looks at the same edges I did, he'd agree with me.

    Look at this screenshot from the same page as yours:
    http://www.gamersyde.com/pop_image.html?G=8363&N=2
    That is definately not Quincunx. Aside from a few edges against the sky (which are likely smoothened with post-processing), there are too many edges with are impossible with Quincunx.

    The lack of blur is another sign. Here's a mathematical proof: If you have a white pixel, all 5 Quincunx samples must be white. Therefore, in all four neighbouring pixels, 2 of the 5 samples will be white, and will have a 25% weighting of white. (FYI, the four outer samples have 12.5% weight each, and with gamma correction enabled it will be even higher so that doesn't invalidate this claim.)

    There are many violations of this rule in the KZ2 screenshots, so they can't be Quincunx.

    Quincunx only looks good on untextured polygons, and even there it only looks better than 2xAA on diagonal edges. For near horizontal/vertical edges, it looks no better, yet it blurs the textures.

    Here is a paper that discusses Quincunx and the authors' own sample sharing scheme called FlipQuad:
    http://www.cs.lth.se/home/Tomas_Akenine_Moller/pubs/masses.pdf (page 6)
    You can see the texture detail blurring, and even when only considering edges Quincunx is no better than 2x2 ordered grid (which in turn is barely better than 2x rotated grid).
     
  20. Rangers

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