Neverending Upscaling/Resolutions/AA etc Thread #2 *Rules: post: #616 *

Discussion in 'Consoles' started by AlBran, Jan 6, 2008.

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  1. Gholbine

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    I seem to recall something a while ago, where an update to the PS3 SDK 'allowed' the usage of 960x1080 for pixel doubling. That implied to me that native resolutions were very strict. It's news to me that any PS3 games so far have been sub-720p, so if that's the case then that answers my question.
     
  2. Mintmaster

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    You can render at any resolution you want and scale it to the the specific PS3 output resolutions yourself. It's much like how a 256x512 texture of a door can be any size on the screen depending on how close you are in the game. There's just no automatic scaling done by the hardware (or maybe the OS) as on the 360.

    The slight blur suggests a custom (i.e. using a pixel shader) filter to go from 630p 2xAA (assuming that's correct) to 720p or 1080p, and then Rockstar draws the text/HUD on top of that at native res. You don't get any more information, though. It's just like scaling in Photoshop.

    EDIT: Missed your earlier post. Yes, in short it's a software solution, just like it's always been.
     
    #582 Mintmaster, Apr 28, 2008
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  3. Mintmaster

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    You don't see that as the PR spin that it is? :lol:

    Man, it's even worse than joker454 painted it. Devs are actually scared of backlash from the 360 version looking better!
     
  4. chachi

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    I can't tell if you're joking but that's what I thought when I found out the news, they were spinning early because they knew the internets would blow up when the native resolution was found to be less than 720p.

    The PS3 version does look good though, and in some shots the lighting looks better. This is the kind of choice that I prefer developers to make rather than just code to the lowest common denominator in order to avoid any controversy.

    edit - I mean the choice between better lighting and outright resolution, play to the strength of the respective consoles.
     
    #584 chachi, Apr 28, 2008
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  5. Mintmaster

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    At first I thought it was the same stunt that Lair pulled in using 2xAA and then expanding the picture to 1 sample per pixel, but then you'd see a clear doubling pattern in textured areas. There's no way in hell that FP10 or even 8-bit causes that, as the dithering error an order of magnitude too big.

    I guess it's an artistic effect. Maybe it looks better in motion. Do the owners see this while playing?
     
  6. Mintmaster

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    No, I'm not joking. joker454 is a dev on these boards, and actually seems to specialize in PS3 now, but check his comments:
    http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1153604&postcount=569 (last paragraph)
    Is the lighting any different, though? Seems like anyone who claims this is comparing apples to oranges.

    Look at this post:
    http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1153699&postcount=506

    That lighting "feel" looks very similar to a PS3 screen at the same time of day:
    http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/6858/wmplayer200804272348001sz1.png

    (I'm sure someone can find a better comparison)
     
    #586 Mintmaster, Apr 29, 2008
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  7. zaftxx

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    Quaz can you test the resolution on a different PS3 image? i guess to double check.
     
  8. tia86

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    Hi.
    Are you sure that the source of the PS3 screenshot (grab from a IGN video) is ok for check the native resolution?
    I know that it's impossible to record via HDMI in PS3, you must use the videocomposite, and with the rencoding you lose much.

    Thank you.
     
  9. chachi

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    Oh, I knew that. I just meant about them being afraid of the 360 version being seen as better due to a very vocal minority.

    I don't think the PS3 is using FP10 and the 360 likely is. How much of a visible difference that makes, no idea. We probably won't ever see direct framebuffer grabs from the PS3 version but I'm sure we'll get lots of offscreen comparison shots of similar locations/lighting conditions very soon. The shot you posted does have a very similar sky which suggests it is the same lighting condition so if we had a bigger screen we could compare better. I'm not sure this is the proper thread for all the lighting and comparison talk, maybe a mod will clean some of this up and move it to the GTA IV tech one. Or maybe it's fine here, what do I know? :)
     
  10. Galduta

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  11. GameBoiye

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    Untrue. You can't tell the native resolution of a game based on screenshots from random websites (as that's what he's basing it off of) seeing as the screenshots are outputted from the system at 720P (monitors would not be able to handle an off standard resolution) and who knows how the pictures were taken or what was applied to them before putting them on the internet. Even if the native resolution isn't 720P, you would need to have the game in order to tell what the system is upscaling from by doing multiple tests using yoru own hardware, not looking at screenshots taken by someone else.
     
  12. Laa-Yosh

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    It's funny how we haven't had so many sceptical new users around here back then when the issue of Halo 3 being sub-720p came up. And Quaz haven't even made a picture saying "GTA4 PS3 is not HD, it's SD" yet...

    His methods are reliable and have been proven to be so several times now. After the initial shock, it turned out to be that higher resolution isn't that important, even though it's of course good to have. So please stop questioning him, and if you have doubts, use the search function and read his previous posts with the explanations.
     
  13. GameBoiye

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    Oh I'm not questioning his skills at all, but I believe his use of screenshots from other people/video game websites to prove his point isn't right. He didn't do that back when he proved halo 3's resolution to my knowledge.

    If he had the game and could take screenshots himself and use those to determine the resolution before upscale, it wouldn't be a big deal, but the way he's going about doing it now is kind of shady compared to his past actions.
     
  14. V3

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    Can RSX even do AA when using FP16 ?
     
  15. GameBoiye

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    Technically yes, but theoretically, I don't think I've seen it used before.
     
  16. Gitaroo

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    what kind of HDR were used in Motorstorm, Uncharted, and Warhawk? All NAO32?
     
  17. Mintmaster

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    There's no reason for these shots to show lower resolution. Cropping a 360 pic to make a face is hard because of the HUD, and the pattern that you look for isn't really affected by compression artifacts or bad captures.

    Bungie was sneaky and released screenshots that were 720p without AA, suggesting that they were in-game. I don't think Quaz even posted about resolutions before Halo3, and it was precisely because of Bungie's sneakiness that it was big news (well, that and the fact that it was MS's flagship title). If anything, the higher resolution screenshot is the one to suspect, but it seems solidly confirmed that 360 is truly 720p 2xAA.

    You can question it if you want, but it's pretty much settled now with a few independent sources having similar results. People with PS3s and expensive HDMI or component capture cards will only confirm what we've seen.
     
  18. GameBoiye

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    I'll still wait till I get more pictures of the actual game. I can do the tests myself. I wouldn't doubt there is some form up upscaling, but I'm not stupid enough to base my findings off of pictures from gaming websites.

    What you just said proved my point. Had he checked halo's screenshots before the game was released he would have guessed wrong, and there's a possibility he's guessing wrong here too. I would have rather him waited till after the game was released so that we can all confirm it and there would be no bickering about it. Shame on Quaz for that.
     
  19. Mintmaster

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    You don't necessarily need HDR formats to get HDR results. Bloom can be applied on any image, but you get a few artifacts, though. In GT5p, for example, I've seen screenshots where a white license plate blooms as much as the sun reflecting off the rear window because the post-process filter can distinguish between white and super-bright-white.

    Even when you want more range, you can do much of it by storing an extra value in the alpha channel to indicate overbrightness. It doesn't mix properly for AA, but that only affects a few edges and often bloom eliminates the jaggies there anyway.

    HDR is much more about artistry than framebuffer format.
     
  20. dabomb665m

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    To be fair, quaz did say he has known for a few days but didn't want to mention it in fear of the shitstorm that would ensue... Seems like it was triggered by the 400% zoom comparisons to show dithering. What's done is done though, if you want more proof I'm sure it'll be brought forth eventually, this is B3D afterall.

    Speaking of which, the dithering is quite distracting in the 360 videos... wish there were some HD videos of the PS3 in action (that didn't require subscriptions like IGN's insider). This video: http://www.mediafire.com/?kdkmditng1i posted in the closed GTA4 thread shows it's pretty much everywhere when in action. Look at the fence in the beginning... ugg.

    Question: how was the 360's resolution calculated? I'm not an expert on this at all but just looking at the dithered 400% zoom of the 360 version seems like it's hard to count the pixels.
     
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