MrSingh speaketh of PS2 vs Naomi2

[chaphack]

More suitable to the gfx whore here i presume...

MrSingh:

Some info for the Naomi 2 and PS2 fanboys.

According to the latest issue of CG World (Japanese 3D graphics trade mag), the PS2 character models of VF4 are about half of the Naomi 2 version. For example, Jacky is made of 14,000 polygons in the Naomi 2 version, but in the PS2 version Jacky's model has about 7,000 polygons.


The mag also has a feature on P.N.03.

1) Lazy8 is teh winnard! N2 owns PS2 in all aspects i guess....

2) Polygons smallygons, does that mean brute polygons is not the best way to render a scene? Doom3 and Halo2 has tiny polygon amount but makes up for that with polybump and animations.

 

[CaptainHowdy]

You really need to chill

 

[darkblu]

come to think of it, can anybody give reasonable figures on what N2 and system246 costed like in those days?

 

[V3]

For example, Jacky is made of 14,000 polygons in the Naomi 2 version, but in the PS2 version Jacky's model has about 7,000 polygons.

14000 ? That's abit low. Tekken Tag on PS2 has more poly count for its fighter than that.

If my memory serve me well its in the 20,000+. Can't remember where I read it. VF4 is an old game afterall. That number wouldn't be that impressive anymore with today's 3D hardware. I expect at least 100,000+ for VF5.

 

[jvd]

come to think of it, can anybody give reasonable figures on what N2 and system246 costed like in those days?

Well i would expect them to both be close in price . Mabye the n2 a little cheaper. Basicly its two kyro chips i believe (could be the neon 250 ) and the elan tnl chip.

 

[Tagrineth]

NAOMI-2 uses an Elan TCL chip and twin PVR-DC's.

 

[V3]

can anybody give reasonable figures on what N2 and system246 costed like in those days?

N2 kit should go for much less than 2 grand, second hand would even be cheaper, and add about 1 grand for one N2 game, again second hand is alot cheaper. Shop around I guess.

System246 is no use, its basically a PS2, and the game on it and its PS2 counterpart are identical. As for prices I don't know, now but it wasn't expensive when it came out, so I guess it would stay around the same now.

 

[wazoo]

For example, Jacky is made of 14,000 polygons in the Naomi 2 version, but in the PS2 version Jacky's model has about 7,000 polygons.

14000 ? That's abit low. Tekken Tag on PS2 has more poly count for its fighter than that.

Tekken Tag fighters were at 10k, and Tekken4 were lower than that.

 

[jvd]

V3 only 2k ? Not bad i was expecting around 10-15k . I heard those prices once... mabye that was for the full cabinet ? Of i could have been told wrong. Thanks for the info

Btw how does the model 3 hardware stack up in price ?

 

[zidane1strife]

Wow, talk about cr@ppy dev.s, I mean Jak2 is using what?

6K for low detail ingame models, and 12K for close-ups(not sure about this, need verification...)

That's a platformer with tons of actions, tons of char.s onscreen, and large open enviroments... running at 60fps...

VF4 is just a fighter with 2 char.s onscreen in small enclosed arenas... HOW on earth can they push just 7K per char.? I mean even the enviroments were scaled down in detail, some probably around 30-50K I'd say/guesstimate ...

 

[Lazy8s]

V3:

N2 kit should go for much less than 2 grand, second hand would even be cheaper, and add about 1 grand for one N2 game, again second hand is alot cheaper. Shop around I guess.

You're talking about purchase costs again when only manufacturing expense is relevant here. The technologies are being compared, not their economic model for profit.

When you buy an arcade machine, you're acquiring a coin-operated device meant to generate money for the buyer - arcade machines are not just produced as free-play videogames for one person to enjoy. The cost of an arcade game includes a built-in licensing fee for this. Arcade games are also produced in quantities of only several thousand maximum and are obviously not sold at a loss (they don't use the razor and blade economic model like the home console industry), so they add a sizable profit margin to each unit for going through the all work it takes to produce one. Lastly, SEGA owns and operates many of its own amusement centers, so they're really only selling a small volume of arcade machines to independent vendors. It wouldn't be worth the effort to set up and maintain distribution on such a low volume if they didn't pad the pricetag with a hefty profit margin.

The Naomi 2 is basically a Dreamcast with added T&L. The ELAN provides this extra power, so a duplicate PowerVR Series 2 part is included to rasterize the extra workload. And like the Naomi, N2's memory pools are sized gluttonously by console standards because the arcade market has a lower tolerance for load times, isn't as price sensitive, and games don't have to be squeezed (compressed) as efficiently in storage as with console games.

So... what's Naomi 2's actual manufacturing cost? The thread we had about all this a while back has the most relevant information:
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4315&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Simon F:

IIRC, the silicon area of Naomi 2 was smaller than that of the PS2. There was no point in cost reducing it (i.e. putting everything into one chip) as it was for the arcade market where systems pay for themselves very very quickly. FWIW it would not have been much more expensive than the N1.

 

[Almasy]

So, AM2 couldn´t get more than that after an extra year they had to get used to the hardware? What an overrated bunch, but hey, Namco could teach them how to code for the PS2 if they do merge afterall.

Oh well, at least VF4Evo has a better IQ. :?

 

[jvd]

So, AM2 couldn´t get more than that after an extra year they had to get used to the hardware? What an overrated bunch, but hey, Namco could teach them how to code for the PS2 if they do merge afterall.

Oh well, at least VF4Evo has a better IQ. :?

Seems like no one can get better than that if what the others above have said about teken chars using less polygons .

 

[Almasy]

Ummm...have you taken a look at SC2? It certainly uses more than 7k polys in their characters, not to mention that if you took ND´s engine for a fightning game you could get a LOT more than that for the characters. Xenosaga´s characters in cutscenes use 12k polys, and it´s far from an outstanding engie. Also, SH3´s characters also use plenty of polygons.

So no, it´s not the fault of PS2, as you always like to believe oh-so-objective-jvd.

 

[jvd]

Ummm...have you taken a look at SC2? It certainly uses more than 7k polys in their characters, not to mention that if you took ND´s engine for a fightning game you could get a LOT more than that for the characters. Xenosaga´s characters in cutscenes use 12k polys, and it´s far from an outstanding engie. Also, SH3´s characters also use plenty of polygons.

So no, it´s not the fault of PS2, as you always like to believe oh-so-objective-jvd.

Tekken Tag fighters were at 10k, and Tekken4 were lower than that.

Once again other fighters use lower polygon counts . So your oh-so-objective stance is just to throw dirt on sega is it not . Oh and cut scenes do not equal a game so you can throw out your xenosaga crap. Oh and sh3's cha's using plenty of polygons is not a polygon count. Use that as proof when u get an oficial number why don't u .

 

[aneep]

err what so crappy about that?

14k is a respectable amount of poly IMO, even the good looking DOA3 supposedly only have around 20k per chara (according to Outlaw Volleyball modeller, he's targetting 15k plus minus for the game per chara)

what's impressive though if that info about polygon count for N2, Elan seems like the 'little engine that could' there

oh, forget what i said, 7k is very low, i thought (1st skim), it was 14k for ps2 version and more than that for N2

my bad, AM2 must be rushing it at the time

-aneep-

 

[Almasy]

Once again other fighters use lower polygon counts . So your oh-so-objective stance is just to throw dirt on sega is it not . Oh and cut scenes do not equal a game so you can throw out your xenosaga crap. Oh and sh3's cha's using plenty of polygons is not a polygon count. Use that as proof when u get an oficial number why don't u .

Ok, so I gather that you´re saying that PS2 can´t use more than 7k polygons per character, right?

 

[jvd]

Once again other fighters use lower polygon counts . So your oh-so-objective stance is just to throw dirt on sega is it not . Oh and cut scenes do not equal a game so you can throw out your xenosaga crap. Oh and sh3's cha's using plenty of polygons is not a polygon count. Use that as proof when u get an oficial number why don't u .

Ok, so I gather that you´re saying that PS2 can´t use more than 7k polygons per character, right?

Where did i say that . Or are u trying to put words in my mouth.

 

[Almasy]

Where did i say that . Or are u trying to put words in my mouth.



Seems like no one can get better than that if what the others above have said about teken chars using less polygons .

What is your point? Maybe I misunderstood you, but you clearly say PS2 can´t display more than 7k characters onscreen because of T4 and VF4.

 

[LogisticX]

In Other News: Xbox is easily overpowered by top line computer technology.




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