Moral rights of copyright and software ownership *spawn

Discussion in 'Politics & Ethics of Technology' started by corduroygt, Jan 1, 2011.

  1. corduroygt

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    Mod: this thread spawned from the console tech thread, from the subject of future software distribution platforms, where the affect of distribution platform on 2nd hand sales etc., diverged the discussion.

    Worse than piracy???? Now I've heard everything...
    Guess what, piracy is what's going to happen if you block used games.

    Anyways, it doesn't matter since the best they can do for Disc based games is an online code. They cannot make it required to have an internet connection, they'll lose sales. Disc games aren't going away by next gen either.
     
  2. eastmen

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    Piracy already happens. So right now you have piracy and the used market. A used market that in the states at the least is supported by the biggest seller of new games.

    They can get rid of the used market going foward. They can't get rid of piracy. So thus they will go after the used market.
     
  3. corduroygt

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    Which will push those in the used market towards piracy, and even some people in the new market towards piracy (since they won't be able to sell their games), so they'll have gained nothing.
     
  4. eastmen

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    So you saying if they get rid of the used market 100% of used game buyers will pirate games . None of them will go simply switch to new games ?

    I call bull on that.


    The simple fact is that gamers who can't afford to buy 20 new games at full price will simply have to wait on some games to hit lower price points or simply not buy them. They will keep making piracy harder and if they switch to an activation server system next gen along with todays security and other improvements it may take even longer. Look at how long piracy took to hit the ps3.

    The used market doesn't help the video game industry at the very least its has a netrual effect , but i doubt anyone here actually believes even that. Even if they are only able to covert back a third of the used market to buying only new games it will be a huge win for them. Even if two thirds go over to piracy .
     
  5. corduroygt

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    The problem isn't with used game buyers, it's with new game buyers. New game buyers will buy less because they won't be able to sell their games. Some new game buyers may even resort to piracy. I personally will NEVER pay full release day price for a game I can't sell later on, even if it's for 10 bucks 2 years down the road.

    DD is also horrible for consumers because at least with retail, Amazon, Walmart, Target, Best Buy, etc. compete with each other and you get at least 10 bucks off for most new games, even on release day. With DD, you're at the mercy of one entity, and you wouldn't get much discounts if XBL and PSN are any indicators.

    I personally would only buy games that are worth keeping and Activision, Sony Santa Monica, etc. would have had 1 fewer new game sale this year because of me. I also know I'm not in the minority with this one. I like buying my stuff new, so I don't buy used games, buy I do exchange a couple games with my friends, and I sure sell any games I don't intend to play again.
     
  6. eastmen

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    My game buying habbits wont change. I only buy new and not being able to trade games into gamestop or sell them online wont change my buying habits. I will still buy the same amount of games a month.


    I like that you leave out Steam , Games for windows live and other DD services which have sales. YOu also have claimed in the past that the only way to sell DD content is to discount it heavly

    Does it matter ? how many people are buying the games your selling back ? How many times does each game you buy pass into another persons hands ?
     
  7. corduroygt

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    You are not the majority judging by Gamestop profits and how many games you see for sale on ebay, craigslist, etc, or judging by how many people actually rent video games.

    Yeah, and when they discount heavily, they won't make as much money, will they? They won't be able to move 8 million copies of COD without used sales at $60. Maybe at $30, they will be able to. Or maybe they'll keep the price at $60 and only sell 4 million, which will be bad for the consumer.


    How do you know those people would have instead paid full price for the game in the first place? If the cheaper used copy wasn't available, maybe they just wouldn't buy it, or they'd pirate it?
     
  8. Xenus

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    You are far over estimating the value of the used market. COD will still sell 8 million copies because none of those 8 million are used sales. Plus honestly the makers could care less if they lost 50 million used sales if they gained 1 million new sales. The used market makes them nothing. There is the slight argument that people who resell their games can buy more new games but even that is weak as long as their remains a rental market people won't care whether they spend 5-10 on a rental or spend 5-10 dollars net on a buy and resale of a game.
     
  9. eastmen

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    What are the numbers. Ebay , craigslist and others aren't accurate measures of whats being sold used. Gamestop also has profits on new games and other items. Rentals for video games are dieing blockbuster is going bye bye and gamefly and other online services are not seeing the type of growth that will replace retail rentals


    They just sold 8 million copies of COD and they are all new games. Will they be able to move 8 million copies if people can't sell thier old games ? mabye not , but alot of gamers wont be willing to pass up playing a game as large as the new cods .

    Mabye instead of how it is today we can actually see real price movements. Right now we only ever realyl see $60 and $20 . Thats because the used titles hit every price point between them. Perhaps in the future we can see them add steps that will make the developer monet cause the title hasn't been at those price points used for months before hand. We could see a game come out at $60 and then 4-5 months later we can see it at $40 and then down to $20

    This doesn't affect publishers/developers at all. It only affects gamers. If they want to pirate it well they may end up with bricked consoles or not being able to play online. If they want to wait for the game to drop in price then they will wait.


    I don't think you understand that right now the used game market isn't helping developers/publishers. Its just as bad if not worse for the industry in comparison to piracy.

    1) A % of people may sell games to fund new game purchases. However the games they sold are now lost new sales of those titles and those titles can be sold over and over again costing more and more new sales.

    2) The biggest Retailer for new video games in the united states is also the biggest pusher of used video games. They sit and sell games that are a week old for $5 less than the new copy sitting next to it. They then entice buyers with discount clubs to feed the cycle. 10% off used games 10% more trade in credit plus 12 issues of gameinformer for $15 a year. They push used games.

    If a new platformwas able to get rid of used games on the system some might be upset , but they wouldn't stop buying the games they want. They will simply adjust their buying habits. Perhaps gamers will wait for reviews , or wait a few months to buy games. But gamers wont stop buying games.
     
  10. corduroygt

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    Bobby Kotick disagrees...
     
  11. eastmen

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    Yes and one person does not change the way the industry is moving. it also helps that cod has a highly replayable multiplayer portion that keeps people holding on to the game for months at the time.

    I wonder how he would feel if they made an extremely great single player game like bioshock and people would play through 20-30 hours of game play and start trading it in days after the game released.
     
  12. Xenus

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    Once again you are focusing way too much on what benefits you and not the market as whole. The market benefits far more for a steam style system then they do from a used system in which they get no profits on those games sold. As long as there is still some sort of rental system and the prices fall after release in a normal way the end user really isn't hurt all that much while the game companies are happy as well as they will get more profit even if it's a little. The only major people hurt here are the gamestops of the world that make so much profit off of used games.
     
  13. aaronspink

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    Now that we are out of the holiday discount silly season, I suggest you take a look at the current top sellers...
     
  14. -tkf-

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    Well they will loose something that might not count for alot in pure money but the support from the customers should be smaller, for example, i consider it pretty shitty that i can buy a game, but in reality i am buying a one of short lived experience. They can do it, but i will think less of them.

    Note, i have never sold a used game, i always keep them since i am a collector. But the idea that i can´t give a game to a friend that i am done with is just to greedy. If they do that, i don´t consider it wrong to give him the game and tell him how to break the copy protection. Since i don´t have the game anymore he aint stealing in my book, the theif is the company that took away a basic right from me.

    I understand the mechanics of DD and that i ain´t able to give away games but i do consider it wrong.

    Hey, you can´t sell your DVD´s they are locked to your person, your books? forget it, they are only yours to read, cars? noway, you drive the car you bought until it falls apart. Used CD´s, forget it... clothes? what! you expect us to accept that others can use the clothes you bought?

    It´s purely profit optimizing from a industry that never has been able to build a healthy market but still produces way to many bad games.
     
  15. eastmen

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    its really the consumers that are responsible to make sure its a sound purchase. Instead of buying the day it comes out , you can simply wait for reviews . You could also simply wait months before buying the game so the price drops.

    What country lists that as a basic right ? You have the option of buying or not buying. That is your right , if you buy then you live by the rules the company set. You get to see those rules before buying.

    I consider taxes wrong. However in the long run it really doesn't matter what i believe. If i don't pay my taxes the goverment will come after me and throw me in jail. With video games if you don't like DD then don't buy it. If its the only option then don't play games anymore

    This is how things are , you are right. What your wrong about is that the industry would in a heart beat lock these things to only you if they could.

    I think if you look at all the things you listed except mabye clothes , that the companys have done a good job of making the used verisons unattractive or offering thier own verisons.

    A Car wears down . A 5 year old car is not the same as a brand new car right out of the factory. The 5 year old car may have stains , may leak oil , the air may not cool as well , it could go at anytime. So its not ideal to buy used. To make it worse the car companys have started certified used programs in which their dealers are able to get the cars and sell them again after getting them for a song and a dance from customers who wnat to trade up .

    Even dvds and cds wear and scratch and break. Aside from that both of these markets are secondary to the main way they make money. A movie on a dvd has already made its money in thearters , it will make money on dvd , it will make money when a pay channel pays for the right , when rental places pay for the right , when basic cable pays for the right , when broad cast pays for the right. It has a ton of way of making money. Even cds have the primary source of concerts. They can also liscense the music to comercials and tv shows and movies and a slew of other things to make money.

    With video games you only normaly get your first sale. If your lucky some point down the line you might be able to launch it as a classic on a newer system.

    I think you should compare similar industrys.

    Every single industry produces some bad things. There are bad cars , would u buy a ford pinto ? There is bad music (rap ,hip hop , r and b ) there are even bad movies , tons of them. Heck there are even bad clothes.

    I don't see the video game industry being any diffrent in that regard


    Becareful what you wish for. I wouldn't put it past the industry to make a disc that destroys itself as you play it just like a car. Would you be happy with that senario. Oh i can't play call of mario war anymore cause the disc wore out , guess its time to rebuy
     
  16. corduroygt

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    You've deliberately confused publisher/developer to make your argument sound good. Not everyone can be their own publisher, especially on consoles. So let's take that publisher cut out of the way and let's see how much the publisher sees, regardless of who they are.

    Retailer markup is about 35% on video games. DD markup is 30%. Of course there's disc pressing and shipping costs with physical, but they can't be more than 5-6% at most. So it's more like a 40% cut vs. 30% going with DD. Does not make up for the fact that DD volume for big titles is less than ten percent of physical volume, due to people buying with cash, not sufficient internet connection, technically more difficult to do , etc.
     
  17. -tkf-

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    The gaming industry has a history of not taking care of their customers, and they get to pay for that.
    Lots of people hate them and don´t give a fuck about stealing their games, it´s not just people getting free games, it´s also people being pissed off by what the industry is doing to them. Want to play this game? Sure, but you can only play it when you are online, and it only installs 3 times...
    What a big surprise that people prefer cracked games that give them less hassle and sets them "free" instead of paying 50$ for a game, they can´t even sell when they are done playing it.

    And do you really think that games would go down in price if the used market isn´t there? They would milk us for all they could. And that is just fine, because that is how capitalism works, but lucky for us we can fight back, even if it´s wrong i am not convinced it´s morally wrong.

    If you take away the option to sell used goods, you will see a backlash in any markets, there was a DVD that tried it, it didn´t have a chance. The industry might have wanted it but the backlash would have been so big it wasn´t worth it. And in all my examples people do buy used CD´s they do buy used cars, books etc. instead of new stuff. And the industry in those examples have learned to live with it. In some cases it´s a way to charge premium for a car, a WV Golf around these parts, is one of the good cars to buy, both used and new, because it "holds it´s price" as a used car. That makes a Golf an attractive new car.

    The problem for the gaming industry is that they make some games that costs a fortune, entertains for a short time and isn´t able to provide long term entertainment. Those games get on the used shelf fast, and people are able to play "almost" new games a week after they came out at a reduced price. The solution is to make the games worth keeping, not making it impossible to sell them used.

    I believe that a true hardware protection on the PC platform would be the best solution to money issues, kill piracy, earn more money. But after reading these posts i think it would be extremely bad to the consumer. Since the industry really just want to milk every last cent out of it´s customers i would fear the protection would be used to kill the 2nd hand market :)

    Note. I practically buy all my games on Steam today where i have a collection of 115 games, since i collect it´s a non issue for me. But i can see the problem for others that just play the games and then never returns.
     
  18. eastmen

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    I haven't confused anything.

    Simple fact is that the developer on steam can be quite small , can make games for much less and then make more money dispite lower average selling prices.

    When you have a publisher like EA your paying for alot of people , buildings , electricity and other things that have nothing to do with your project. However with pyhsical retail developers need a publisher like EA to front the money.

    You should read the interview its very good.

    I also don't know where your getting your DD volume numbers. What platform besides PC is DD even a viable option for big named games ?
     
  19. eastmen

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    People don't dislike the movie industry and the music industry for the same reasons ? WTF dude at least make valid arguements. I bought an ipod and bought itunes music and then apple wouldn't let me use it on my zune. What I did was find a service that was open to me , but for a little while i simply stoped buying music.

    I bought evil dead on dvd when it first came out and since then about 8 other verisons came out that were each more complete than the first , I didn't bitch and steal cause of it. I simply stoped buying dvds when they first came out and started to only buy $5 titles. It worked out great , i was able to buy 4 dvds for every one that i bought before changing my buying habits.

    There is never an excuse to steal


    Whats this have to do with anything. Whats the hassle when you buy an xbox 360 game ? Doesn't it just work on your 360 ? Or are you upset you can't make 15 copies and give them to your friends ?

    I understand on the pc side that its a hassle but look at what happened to humble pie bundle. They were trying to do something for charity and you could pay anything from the bundle even $1 if you wanted and within hours of the bundle being offered with no DRM it was on torrent sites for free and people were downloading it. Its obvious that people don't care about DRM or noble causes that you want to believe in , they just wnat free shit .


    I have proof that they will go down. The pc market hasn'thad a used market in over 10 years and games continue going down. I bought the first assasins creed for $7 bucks on steam last week. I bought the witcher for $10. I got bioshock 2 for $10 also. The titles go down in price. I don't think you understand how long it takes even now with the used market for titles to go down in price. Cod mw 2 is still $60 bucks new.

    If there was no used market devs would have room to lower prices because at $60 there is x amount of people who will buy it , but at $50 thee is x + y amount. All those who bought at $60 and then new people who buy at $50 and it continues that way all down the pipe as people find a price they feel is justified. With used games they are already at those prices there is no reason for devs to drop the price. Game stop has a sliding over head with nothing to repay when it sells a game or very little. The value of what it sells is based on what the new game is selling for. If the developer drops to $40 then gamestop can drop to $30 and instead of paying $25 for the game they can now pay $15. If the developer drops to $20 then gamestop can sell for $15 and pay $5 .




    The problem with your examples is the sheer scope. Tell me what B&M store sells used cds or used movies. The biggest retailers that push new movies and cd sales do not sell them used. Best buy , Walmart , Target don't sell used dvds or used cds.

    The biggest new game seller is also the biggest used game seller.

    The problem is they allow this to happen because of an acient system. Once they switch to DD this problem goes away.

    Aside from that , COD BO has tons of replayability , i still saw used copies at gamestop days after release.


    If they were able to get rid of piracy on the pc then game sales would go up , there is no used market for pc games.

    If on the console side they got rid of used games then new game sales would go up.

    I don't see a problem for them. They just have to be smarter with their money. There are few games i buy launch day anymore. I now wait for reviews and then wait on a steam sale. There are plenty of games out there that I haven't played that are ripe for going on sale.

    Like i said , I bought assasians creed for $7 bucks. Yes their is a part 3 , but part 1 is just as good and I've never played it , next i will buy part 2 whe nit dorps that low and then part 3 and by then a part 4 and 5 will be out.

    Gamers can't have this both ways . They can't expect better and better graphics and games with larger and larger budgets while devs recoup less and less moeny from sales due to the used market.

    Either the used market goes or both the new and used market go. Just look at the market , its harder and harder to make new games that sell , all the big sellers are sequals of sequals . IF it wasn't for the DD market on consoles and steam on pc which has no used games then new and innovative titles wouldn't come out . We have more and more developers going bankrupt and closing down
     
  20. corduroygt

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    Regardless of the method of distribution, all you're going to get are small games like Limbo or Joe Danger, or Torchlight without a publisher. You are not going to get Call of Duty, Battlefield or GTA without a publisher. Those buildings and electricity are used by people who make games who work there.
     
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