Minimum All Elctric Range for PHEV

[chavvdarrr]

/me runs to USA and steals all these cheap fuels...
runs away screaming: "Mine, MINE, MIINEEEE, precioussssss"

sorry, couldn't resist ... but someone complaining that $1 /l is expensive is blasphemy 8|

 

[RussSchultz]

You could always ask your governments to stop taxing you so much.

 

[Mintmaster]

It's not that difficult to finance if you pay 7.56$/gallon for gasoline and 20 cent/kWh for the electricity (hope i got that right) like we do in Sweden. The Volt should use around 1.2 kWh/10km (40 miles = 65 km), or get 5 miles/kWh if you like. The cost should then be something like:

Electricity: 1.2 * 0.20 = 0.24$/10 km

Compared to a normal small car which would use around 0.6l/10km , 2$/l = 1.2$/10km.

That's about 1/5 of the cost for the "fuel" here in Sweden. You could argue that a small diesel could run on perhaps 0.45l/10km but that would still be 0.45*2.1 (diesel is a bit more expensive now) = 0.945$/10 km. Still 1/4 of the cost if you run on electricity. Then add the environmental benefits when running on electricity on top of that.

Right, so lets say you drive at least 60 km per day. You can save $170 per month. Putting that money to your monthly car payment, that probably works out to being able to afford a car that's ~$10K more. A 16kWh battery probably cost less, but it's certainly more than a few grand.

For people who don't drive as much per day and pay less for gasoline, it's not so clear.

 

[Mintmaster]

well, put in a car running on CNG and the cost will become 1/2 of that, and CNG produces much less polution than gasoline/diesel.
Then add environmental damage in order to produce batteries and dispose them...
Dunno, all-electric sounds cool, but I just think that technology for storing/rtecycling electricity is still not up-to-whats needed.

CNG requires infrastructure, though, and isn't as good on the wallet or environment as PHEV.

Nobody is advocating all-electric. PHEV will eliminate maybe 90% of emissions without the monsterous investment that's needed for all-electric, hydrogen, CNG, ethanol, etc.

 

[Arwin]

No, the cost when running on CNG wouldn't be half of that (i'm assuming that you're talking about diesel), at least not in Sweden.

Li-ion batteries aren't considered harmful for the environment and doesn't even have to be recycled. The same can't be said for the current NiMH batteries though , f.e the ones in the Prius.

But for the Prius too, the cost of recycling is included in the price (as well as into the environmental impact report of the Prius, which still stands out as very good).

 

[Frank]

I would love a car like the Volvo ReCharge (but not in white):

Plug-in hybrid, wheel hub motors, Li-Ion polymer battery pack (light, high energy density, long life and no dangerous waste) and expected to drive really well.

 

[chavvdarrr]

Then I'd like Honda CR-Z ... but coupe's are not good for moving family at morning and evening to/from school/work.

 

[Bjorn]

For people who don't drive as much per day and pay less for gasoline, it's not so clear.

Well, how about a 20 mile, 8kWh battery version then ? Or a 10 mile version:

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2006/1...-vue-green-line-will-offer-2-mode-and-plug-i/

 

[RussSchultz]

Well, how about a 20 mile, 8kWh battery version then ? Or a 10 mile version:

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2006/1...-vue-green-line-will-offer-2-mode-and-plug-i/

That would just about halve my gas consumption (10 miles each way).

Probably take about half the fun of driving out, too.

 

[Frank]

Probably take about half the fun of driving out, too.

What makes it fun? Luxury, great horsepower at high rev, or superior traction at all times?

Or do you mean: having to look at the dial at all times?

 

[RussSchultz]

The 10 second 0-60 takes away from the fun, and the relatively poor handling of a Saturn Vue.

 

[Frank]

I agree to that.

 

[Bjorn]

I was talking about the idea itself, not necessarily a Saturn Vue. Could be a 640 hp Mini (just a "shorter range on electricity" version) instead:

http://www.pmlflightlink.com/archive/news_mini.html

They are the manufacturers of the wheel motors for the Volvo ReCharge btw:

http://www.pmlflightlink.com/news_volvo.html

do you mean: having to look at the dial at all times?

What dial ? It's a hybrid so i guess that you're not talking about the power left in the batteries or anything like that.

 

[Sxotty]

Li-ion batteries aren't considered harmful for the environment and doesn't even have to be recycled. The same can't be said for the current NiMH batteries though , f.e the ones in the Prius.

But Tesla will still recycle the batteries:

http://www.teslamotors.com/learn_more/recycling.php

The cost of the recycling is "built into" the price of the car so they will recycle the battery when the time comes to do that. The Li is still usable.

That is disingenuous of Tesla if you ask me.

Lithium is very valuable and according to colleagues who are materials science engineers recycling is really cheap for LION batteries. They should be making money on the recycling from what I understand. Of course that depends I suppose on how far they have to ship it.

 

[Frank]

I was talking about the idea itself, not necessarily a Saturn Vue. Could be a 640 hp Mini (just a "shorter range on electricity" version) instead:

http://www.pmlflightlink.com/archive/news_mini.html

They are the manufacturers of the wheel motors for the Volvo ReCharge btw:

http://www.pmlflightlink.com/news_volvo.html

http://www.pmlflightlink.com/news_volvo.html
Yes, that's the idea!

What dial ? It's a hybrid so i guess that you're not talking about the power left in the batteries or anything like that.

Not to see if you could make it, but if you're still driving Green/cheap.

 

[Bjorn]

Not to see if you could make it, but if you're still driving Green/cheap.

I'm guessing that you would be able to hear when the ICE starts.

 

[Simon F]

I'm guessing that you would be able to hear when the ICE starts.

I wish people wouldn't use the In Circuit Emulator acronym on a computer-related site for something else.... it confuse the H out of me every time.

Seriously though, surely you could make the starting nearly silent if you wanted to.

 

[Bjorn]

Perhaps. There's also a reason for making it even more quiet then in a "normal" car because it might be running at full speed even when you are driving really slow:

http://www.autobloggreen.com/photos/volt-briefing-april-2008/733650/

I'm sure that they could adjust that a bit depending on how fast you drive but remember that the engine will be optimized to run at a certain speed and anything that differs from that will be less efficient.

 

[RussSchultz]

They need to make the sound that the jetson's flying cars made: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Downs/1382/sounds/jetsonscar.wav

 

[Arwin]

Perhaps. There's also a reason for making it even more quiet then in a "normal" car because it might be running at full speed even when you are driving really slow:

http://www.autobloggreen.com/photos/volt-briefing-april-2008/733650/

I'm sure that they could adjust that a bit depending on how fast you drive but remember that the engine will be optimized to run at a certain speed and anything that differs from that will be less efficient.

Looking at the graph, a lot of the basics are comparable to the Prius. In the Prius, when you have the windows open, you can hear the difference between the engine being on and off (goes from quiet to nothing, basically), but it the engine on still makes very little sound compared to most modern cars, even if the engine is working hard to charge the battery / warm up the engine (when it can combine these two, it will obviously).

In all other circumstances, I can only barely tell the difference, and often the only giveaway is that you can feel a slight shudder in the car when the fuel engine shuts off.