Kinect technology thread

it's a few centimeters for the Z axis

 

I'm guessing their issue is the lack of buttons. Even a mouse needs buttons.

As far as I can tell, Kinect is not targeted at "core gamers". those folks already _have_ the console. Kinect was created to convince the _next_ 40 million people to buy the console. People keep arguing that you need the "core gamers" to drive adoption in the non-gamer market, to which I answer "Wii."

 

I'll completely agree with you there, but there's a lot to be said about trying to get your existing 40 million "core gamer" base to get excited about it too. Cause with that kind of word of mouth it can drive up sales to their friends & family members that do not make up that core gamer audience. Alienate that core gamer too much and it could backfire on you.

I'm not saying MS is doing that in this instance. There's enough discussion in the forums & blogosphere about Kinect that it shows there's a lot of interest from the core gamer audience even if most of that talk is negative. I'm sure the majority are interested in seeing it action. But like all core gamers they always want to see & play with the latest new toys. It'll be interesting to see if the experience they end up delivering this November will intrigue enough of the core gamer audience to buy into it. Unfortunately, I ultimately think that it's not the technology itself that will fail to sell them, but instead the cost of the device & the games. It might be pretty cool tech and all, but with the launch titles they've shown so far I think MS will fail to set a price that the audience will agree with. The non-core probably could care less about price(see Wii), but the core will and I think that will ultimately make or break Kinect.

Tommy McClain

 

That's the thing though, for this "new demographic" that MS are chasing, is word of mouth from core gamers really necessary? Heck, it could even be harmful if core gamers raved about it too much. It could make some people think, "Oh yeah I know what kinds of games he wants, it's going to be more of the same."

In some ways I feel MS is deliberately trying to avoid any connection to core games with the initial launch lineup. Core games are meant for later, after Kinect has established itself with the demographic they hope is out there. Core games for Kinect would also require much more experimentation and polish so that would fit right in.

With that said, I think the word of mouth and hype is already spreading in the MS would prefer. Through media (Today show, Late night with Jimmy Fallon, even some daytime soap opera I think had it, etc). Through non-core people, etc. Get the people that aren't console gamers excited or at least interested and you've already won half the battle for Kinect.

Take the experience that Joker related at whatever place it was he was at (mall? MS shop?) where the kids were going hog wild with the system while parents watched with amusement.

Right there you've already planted Kinect in the mind of a wife with a family and kids. Come Christmas time when it's time to start thinking about what to get for the kids, it'll certainly be a consideration. Now throw in those fitness titles to sweeten the deal for the woman of the family who wants to be in shape but never seems to have the time...and...

Anyway, my point being is that I don't think core gamer approval is all that relevant to what MS is trying to achieve here. At least with the first marketing wave...

Regards,
SB

 

I have a follow up about point on public demos, but it will go into the non-standard interfaces thread instead.

So back on topic...

Kinect some exposure today at the Develop Conference in Brighton. CTO Andrew Oliver of Blitz Games(Biggest Loser and Yoostar 2) and Development Director Nick Burton of Rare Studio(Kinect Sports) both talked about using Kinect while sitting, laying down and even the potential for core games.

Rare Used Banjo Kazooie Engine for its Kinect Sports Title
http://news.spong.com/article/21839/Rare-Used-Banjo-Kazooie-Engine-for-its-Kinect-Sports-Title


Can Kinect handle a player lying down? Yes and no
http://www.joystiq.com/2010/07/14/can-kinect-handle-a-player-lying-down-yes-and-no/


Rare discusses new challenges of Kinect development
http://www.joystiq.com/2010/07/14/rare-discusses-new-challenges-of-kinect-development/

Evidently Rare played with the idea of a PS Move device before going with Kinect...



Kinda funny looking.

Rare hints at hardcore Kinect titles
http://www.videogamer.com/news/rare_hints_at_hardcore_kinect_titles.html

Rare researching GoldenEye for Kinect?
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/rare-exploring-goldeneye-for-kinect

Tommy McClain

 

A lot of very interesting information in all of those links but I found these bits particularly interesting from the above.

Combined with the other article on being able to see the fingers and count how many are held up in the raw feed, finger tracking is possible, it just requires someone to write their own routine. I'd imagine they'd likely have to do something to make the fingers possibly more distinct.

UBISofts Child of Eden comes to mind with the white glove possibly making it easier to detect fingers or at least open hand versus closed hand. Although just as likely it's only for dramatic affect.

And as well...

My god I hope that finally puts to rest the whole "can't play while sitting" noise. Granted you may be limited in some types of actions (leg movements maybe?) but I'm not sure a game designed with sitting in mind will be overly affected by any lack.

Regards,
SB

 

that was a trick answer because there is no skeleton tracking in Yoostar 2 they just use the camera to record you the same way they do with the PlayStation Eye. unless he was talking about using the Menu in Yoostar 2 while setting down.

 

No it won't.

Case in point the reply below your comment.

Either way, I believe its as MSFT stated, design your game around sitting down and playing and it will definitely work. Otherwise it won't.

 

The weird bit is that the MS designer for Natal thought that the original (higher res?) natal would not reliably track fingers...

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-kinect-spec-blog-entry

(that was given to eurogamer as one of the reasons to downgrade the resolution)

One amusing thought is that the child-of-eden demo used the RGB camera rather than the depth image . But yes, more likely he was pretending to be a conductor with the white gloves. (CoE is a good place that finger tracking would have been useful, and yet it wasn't used)

If you were in Kinect PR and the story 'Kinect does not work whilst seated' appeared, then surely your first thought is: "get 5 journalists into demo room A, and we'll show them the skeletal demo on a nice comfy couch"?

Is the Kinect PR department incompetent, or is there more to it than "it works whilst seated"?

 

be hard to do if no software exists to do it or at least no completed software. Get 5 guys in a room and show them 30% finished code and they walk away telling eeryone that it works some of the time but mostof the time it doesn't and it hurts just as much as not saying anything at all.

 

Can you play games that tracks your whole body while sitting down or just the ones that tracks only your upper body?

 

no one knows. But how is a camera supposed to see your groin area when seated ? Your hips and groin would be blocked by your legs. Your thighs would be blocked by your knees.

I would think seated it be only upper body and perhaps your knees to your feet.

 

Push-ups testing on EA Sports Active 2 & on the Kinect Visualizer...

http://kotaku.com/5587823/kinect-kind-of-compatible-with-push+ups

Tommy McClain

 

Well it's now the second game/demo that has shown the ability to play while seated. And the first (Forza Kinect demo) wasn't at the behest of Microsoft. It was done spur of the moment when a Journalist asked and has been repeated for others at request.

As to the second part, that follows...

First, I'd imagine there's going to be problems tracking the entire skeleton while sitting, but I'm not entirely certain whether that's because MS haven't devoted much time to the issue (compared to full body standing) or inherent limitations in the system.

But that gets to the question of just how much of the body needs to be tracked while sitting.

Upper Torso is obvious, without that you're going to be dead in the water, so that's a must.

Hips is also obvious, except this time it's not something you need.

Knees and feet? Possibly. But here you get into a variety of issues beyond what the camera is capable of. In many households there's going to be a coffee table in front of the sofa, so whether kinect can track that or not it's going to pose a problem. Which leads back to the above, if it's something that's going to be problematic due to furniture placement then why focus on it? Of course, there's the argument that full body active games are going to require a lot of room, no doubt. But then again not everyone might get the full body active games, or they may have enough room even with the coffee table.

And that all goes back to designing a game with sitting in mind.

From one of the links Azbat had in his post above, you can see that Natal can easily "see" a person on a sofa/chair and "see" the legs. But as some have speculated, if there's no movement and Kinect hasn't been trained/programmed to recognize it, then Kinect won't know whether that's a piece of furniture or part of the person's body.

Personally it's my opinion that Kinect just hasn't be programmed to recognize it as of yet, at least not to the extent that full body standing has been. Will it happen in the future? Unknown. But right now, with launch coming up, I'm sure they are focused solely on those things that are absolutely required for it to be taken seriously. Full body standing and Upper torso sitting.

Time will tell if knee and leg tracking are insurmountable challenges and/or lack of interest from MS to track them.

Regards,
SB

 

Is there any confirmation of the depth range (near/far) and resolution of the camera? Using depth to pick out a standing player from the background is a lot easier than picking out a seated player where there's a lot of stuff at the same depth (sofa back, cushions etc, especially if the sofa is not directly facing the camera if you have your TV in the corner of the room, for example), and players don't tend to move around much while sitting so less ability to deduce a skeleton via movement.

 

There's also the problem that 'sitting' isn't always in a convenient upright, two-feet-on-the-floor manner. Often when people are comfortable there's a degree of slouching going on, feet on footstools, or legs crossed.

 

Which would also mean problems with ethnic dress. Queue 'racial discrimination' rants!

 

Not surprising, I expected it. And I don't think it's a deal breaker & it's certainly not another blow. How do you expect the device to track a standing human if it can't see your legs? Might as well have a couch in front of you. It probably needs to see the knees in order to work. This is where Microsoft needs to educate people about the requirements before people get their hopes up.

Tommy McClain

 

http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-...video-of-Kinect-for-Xbox-360-at-Atlanta-Macys